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DarthDommo
Marine
December 19th, 2009 @ 9:00PM
Registered:
2003-03-26
Location:
Iowa
Posts: 53
| Health care run by the same people who run social security, the DMV and the post office? Sign me up! |
Sargos
Peon
December 19th, 2009 @ 9:26PM
Registered:
2003-03-26
Location:
Beaumont, Texas
Posts: 43
| Government run healthcare didn`t pass. The public option and the Medicare expansion were both taken out.
This is the same healthcare system we have now with a basic set of rules put in place to make sure the insurance companies aren`t committing any crimes like dropping coverage upon getting sick or denying insurance to people who want to pay for insurance but already have a condition.
So if you like your current healthcare then you will like the new protections added by this bill. |
Xious
Marine
December 19th, 2009 @ 9:54PM
Registered:
2003-03-25
Location:
Syracuse, NY
Posts: 225
| hey man, welcome. the next stop on that path of logic is that its much easier to pass legislation when no thought is given as to its ramifications (war, domestic spying) as opposed to truly ruminating on a subject to ensure its effectiveness (health care). Now you know why republicans come across as `efficient leaders.`
Post office delivers mail on time and reliably. DMV is slow, but is effective. Social security woes have been notoriously overblown |
Forsaken
Special Ops
December 19th, 2009 @ 10:19PM
Registered:
2003-10-30
Location:
San Francisco, CA
Posts: 566
| Hi, I am against health care reform. This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy.
I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility.
After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.
I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.
At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.
On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.
After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.
And then I log on to the internet -- which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration -- and post on forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.
EDITED: 2009-12-19 22:23:04 |
jdLordHelmet
Good is Dumb
December 20th, 2009 @ 5:50AM
Registered:
2003-12-22
Location:
Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1295
| ^ this. Debate over. |
dmikon
Peon
December 20th, 2009 @ 7:08AM
Registered:
2004-11-05
Location:
USA
Posts: 398
| Forsaken Wins. Fatality! |
Apricoth
Kali Compton Girl
December 20th, 2009 @ 8:06AM
Registered:
2003-06-14
Location:
MN
Posts: 1792
| The Healthcare issue is quite complicated. The foundation of our healthcare right now is so faulted it's not even funny. This bill is just building on top of that messed up foundation and it's only going to get worse. Oh well, nothing we can do about it now. We start paying for it next year and no one will get to see the benefits of it until 2014 if they are lucky. Oh, and that's after we cannot hold our votes against them if this "reformation" of theirs doesn't work. Aside from that this bill is soooo full of pork having nothing to do with healthcare - GEEEZZZ. It pisses me off. |
Wootah
non-leet
December 20th, 2009 @ 8:17AM
Registered:
2003-05-16
Location:
Utah
Posts: 1463
| Didn't we just recently get an article posted here about the worst run city in America? If I recall, it was San Francisco, the very location that Forsaken has listed as his location.
The argument he uses has been used many times by people being governed at many different forms of government, pointing out how the existence is of all these great things justifiably means more expenditures should be made... At what point do we cross over from something 'good' into something like San Francisco (and california in general)?
I certainly agree that many of the programs, departments, and regulatory agencies do a whole lot of good in our life (education and internet in particular), but you make it sound as if their absence would mean the end of life as we know it, as if something privatized couldn't exist in some of those scenarios.
We currently have a privatized system and one of the reasons that it isn't working so well may very well be government interference. Maybe it would be worse without all the regulations, maybe not. You don't know, but it sure is easy to argue, and until you do know, you argument really doesn't persuade all of us who fear the rest of the country is going to end up as poorly run as many of the very left leaning centers thought currently in existence today in the US. |
shark180
Liberal hater
December 20th, 2009 @ 8:42AM
Registered:
2004-01-25
Location:
MI
Posts: 962
| With how well the Government runs Social Security...I can only see this working well. |
RowdyRoddyPiper
Nut Job
December 20th, 2009 @ 8:43AM
Registered:
2003-06-20
Location:
Nashville TN
Posts: 1672
| healthcare run by the criminals who dump toxic sodium fluoride in our water as well as lithium to make you fat
http://www.infowars.com/fox-news-covers-mass-drugging-of-society-with-lithium/
get ready to have another tax taken out of your paychecks. for all you who support this i bet you will change your mind when you see 100-200 dollars stolen from you going to the insurance companys. anyways heres an amazing clip, very infomative, obamas speech on climate change at copenhagen and alex jones showing every lie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuHO9nJZWto&feature=sub |
RyanS
Marine
December 20th, 2009 @ 9:32AM
Registered:
2003-03-26
Location:
Michigan
Posts: 154
| I don`t have an issue with `Health Care Reform` - but I do have an issue with setting a deadline to vote for it. There is no reason this has to be done by Christmas when the bill won`t even take effect until 2014. They might as well make sure it is done well, and not rush it. |
Nebuchadnezzar
The King
December 20th, 2009 @ 10:58AM
Registered:
2003-03-20
Location:
Irvine, CA
Posts: 3628
| The bill is full of bribes and pet projects for these assholes so they'll approve it. |
shark180
Liberal hater
December 20th, 2009 @ 11:28AM
Registered:
2004-01-25
Location:
MI
Posts: 962
| I also like the putting american's back to work bill they have in the works...it doesn't do much but expand unemployment. |
BiVRiP
General
December 20th, 2009 @ 12:27PM
Registered:
2003-05-11
Location:
Canada
Posts: 1879
| I interpreted Forsaken's post differently. I don't think he was suggesting that we necessarily have to spend more on government run programs. He was merely highlighting the absurdness of people who claim or insinuate that nothing good ever comes out of government run/funded programs.
When it comes to things like health care, what they should be doing is overhauling the bad parts piece by piece. Better to have a dozen small individual bills that most will agree on than one mega bill which will undoubtedly split the voters along party lines. |
DarthDommo
Marine
December 20th, 2009 @ 1:16PM
Registered:
2003-03-26
Location:
Iowa
Posts: 53
| Just because you are ok with the amount of government control over your daily activities doesn`t mean it doesn`t exist, and also does not conclude that it is the best solution for the problems of mankind.
Fact: social program spending is slowly bankrupting the United States and the entire western world in general. All this stuff sure sounds like a good idea but who is going to pay for it? I`ll just take the liberal point of view and not care where the money comes from as long as I feel good about it. |
hjparcins
General
December 20th, 2009 @ 2:50PM
Registered:
2008-10-27
Location:
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Posts: 980
| I agree with RyanS. If this is so important, why not take a little extra time to really get it right? They've spent less time discussing health care than countless far less important issues passing through the legislature.
Clearly there is an agenda here, and THAT is the problem. If the best interest of the American people was the heart of the matter here, they wouldn't be voting on it at 1 am tonight after giving kickbacks to a few key voters and after having less than a week of actually being able to read the final, 2000+ page bill. |
DeuceOfSpades
Kali Compton
December 20th, 2009 @ 4:01PM
Registered:
2003-04-12
Location:
Posts: 3180
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forest_queen
Dame
December 20th, 2009 @ 5:09PM
Registered:
2003-03-26
Location:
WA
Posts: 1243
| Deuce wins. |
BlueFalcon
Word To Your Mom
December 20th, 2009 @ 6:14PM
Registered:
2003-04-27
Location:
Filth-a-delphia
Posts: 1288
| The problem with Forsaken's little pro-gov't bit is that he highlights things that lend themselves to centralization. Power, roads, food regulation, water distribution, a postal system, etc. Or he highlights one-off innovations like the Internet (which didn't really take off until you had private interests get more control/content on it).
I don't see health care as an ideal model for centralization. There's just too many individual choices that need to be made, and gov't is pretty poor at deciding things for people--or at least reaching a decision that people are happy with. |
Apricoth
Kali Compton Girl
December 20th, 2009 @ 6:50PM
Registered:
2003-06-14
Location:
MN
Posts: 1792
| heh Deuce - I like how you think. |
Nalcolm
Thinker
December 21st, 2009 @ 12:49AM
Registered:
2005-04-16
Location:
Posts: 617
| The problem with Forsaken's little pro-gov't bit is that he highlights things that lend themselves to centralization. Power, roads, food regulation, water distribution, a postal system, etc. Or he highlights one-off innovations like the Internet (which didn't really take off until you had private interests get more control/content on it).
The problem with Deuce's post is that he tries to refute Forsaken on a point by point basis no matter how far that makes him stretch. Stamps get more expensive? Oh shit, someone sound the drums of revolution.
The problem with everyone else (aside from bivrip I guess) is that they totally missed the point of what Forsaken was saying: for certain services centralized government is exactly what you want. Dismissing something outright because of government involvement is as closed-minded as dismissing something outright because it makes a business some money.
I thought Forsaken was being heavy handed, but obviously his post was a bit too deep for the rest of you.
By the way, Deuce: I'm a foreigner and I've never met a canadian who hated his country as much as you do. You live in a nice enough place, a country much more socially safe than the US but much more personally free than the western nations of the EU... lighten up, I guess. |
ROBOKATZ
Marine
December 21st, 2009 @ 6:27AM
Registered:
2003-03-25
Location:
Melbourne, FL
Posts: 405
| Of course, the health care system is already a huge bureaucracy, and unless you`re paying yourself, your health care decisions are already decided by "panels". So it remains to see what the government could do worse, except put the people`s interests ahead of profits.
This is all a strawman though since we are not having any government run health plans, in fact, medicare is being reduced. |
Apricoth
Kali Compton Girl
December 21st, 2009 @ 7:20AM
Registered:
2003-06-14
Location:
MN
Posts: 1792
| I got what he was saying but I do not agree with what Forsaken said on most of his points. There has been some good that has come out of government involvement and I certainly hope this works out that way as well. As I see it, it won't be for a very long, long, long, long, long, long, long time... Probably not even in our life time because of the approach the government has chosen to take. Instead of fixing the foundation of all that they are building on, they are adding to a foundation that is corrupt and broken. The government should have stepped in and started regulating the healthcarriers in some form.. Or get laws through that require insurance carriers to put a cap on premiums, make it against the law to revoke coverage, make it against the law to remove pre-existing/waiting periods, etc, instead of attacking this the whole entire spectrum all at once. Whatever, the democrats are too damn powerful, Pelosi even relished in that fact with her quaint little phrase she uttered in public a few months back, refusing to allow the public to SEE ALL THE DAMN BILL SO WE ARE INFORMED OF WHAT'S IN IT (What the f*** are they hiding???). It's all smoke and mirrors - it's utter bullshit.
Change is needed. However, I do not enjoy being lied to and any decisions being made about my future, the future of my children included, behind closed doors is scarey as shit. Where is transparency that Obama promised? It ain't happening. |
GroverDill
Special Ops
December 21st, 2009 @ 9:50AM
Registered:
2003-04-09
Location:
your mom's house
Posts: 802
| I agree with RyanS. If this is so important, why not take a little extra time to really get it right? They've spent less time discussing health care than countless far less important issues passing through the legislature.
Because the more time you spend "really getting it right", the more opportunity there is for insurance industry lobbyists and dipshit Lieberman wannabes to chip away at the parts of the bill that they don't like - no reforms will be added at this point, only taken away.
I agree with you that this isn't the way it SHOULD work, but given that it IS the way it works, I don't fault the Senate for wanting to get something passed.
Whatever, the democrats are too damn powerful, Pelosi even relished in that fact with her quaint little phrase she uttered in public a few months back, refusing to allow the public to SEE ALL THE DAMN BILL SO WE ARE INFORMED OF WHAT'S IN IT (What the f*** are they hiding???). It's all smoke and mirrors - it's utter bullshit.
Republicans have completely opted out of having any part of this process. Blame the Democrats completely if you want to, but if the entire opposition party sits out of the legislative process, they frankly deserve whatever they end up with. If you truly believe that real health care reform is needed and that approach taken by the Democrats is flawed, then you should FURIOUS at the Republicans for not taking a more active role in this process. I can assure you that the Harry Reid would have LOVED to put provisions for tort reform and interstate competition in this bill if it meant being able to count on 5 or 6 Republican votes to counteract conservadem kooks. |
Apricoth
Kali Compton Girl
December 21st, 2009 @ 12:25PM
Registered:
2003-06-14
Location:
MN
Posts: 1792
| Alright - the whole collective lot of them are full of bullshit, happy now? It does not negate the fact that this entire process is not transparent and is held behind closed doors - thanks Pelosi! |
DeuceOfSpades
Kali Compton
December 21st, 2009 @ 5:50PM
Registered:
2003-04-12
Location:
Posts: 3180
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