"A 32-year-old Norwegian man was charged over both attacks, but police say it is possible another person was involved."
"The suspect is reported by local media to have had links with right-wing extremists."
Looks like it might not have been Islam at all.
* Describes himself as a Christian and conservative on Facebook page attributed to him
* Grew up in Oslo and attended Oslo School of Management
* Set up farm through which he would have had access to fertiliser - which can also be used to make a bomb
Qur’an:9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”
Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”
Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”
Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”
Qur’an:9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”
Ishaq:300 “I am fighting in Allah’s service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah’s war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good.”
Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”
Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”
Ishaq:326 “Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth.”
Bukhari:V4B52N63 “A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, ‘Allah’s Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?’ The Prophet said, ‘Embrace Islam first and then fight.’ So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah’s Apostle said, ‘A Little work, but a great reward.’”
Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’”
Muslim:C34B20N4668 “The Messenger said: ‘Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights.”
Qur’an:9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”
Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Qur’an:8:72 “Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.” [Another translation reads:] “You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.”
Muslim:C9B1N31 “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought.”
Bukhari:V9B84N59 “Whoever says this will save his property and life from me.’”
Qur’an:8:73 “The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah’s religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid—these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise).”
Tabari IX:69 “Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us.”
Qur’an:48:16 “Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: ‘You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture.”
Qur’an:48:22 “If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah.”
Qur’an:47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”
Qur’an:47:31 “And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters.”
Tabari VI:138 “Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting.”
Tabari VI:139 “Allah had given his Messenger permission to fight by revealing the verse ‘And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.’”
Qur’an:9:19 “Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah’s Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah.”
Ishaq:550 “The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling.”
Qur’an:5:94 “Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment.”
Ishaq:578 “Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet’s fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory.”
Tabari IX:22 “The Prophet continued to besiege the town, fighting them bitterly.”
Tabari IX:25 “By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta’if so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant.”
Tabari IX:82 “The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them.”
Tabari IX:88 “Abdallah Azdi came to the Messenger, embraced Islam, and became a good Muslim. Allah’s Apostle invested Azdi with the authority over those who had surrendered and ordered him to fight the infidels from the tribes of Yemen. Azdi left with an army by the Messenger’s command. The Muslims besieged them for a month. Then they withdrew, setting a trap. When the Yemenites went in pursuit, Azdi was able to inflict a heavy loss on them.”
Ishaq:530 “Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends.”
Muslim:C9B1N29 “Command For Fighting Against People So Long As They Do Not Profess That There Is No Ilah (God) But Allah And Muhammad Is His Messenger: When the Messenger breathed his last and Bakr was appointed Caliph, many Arabs chose to become apostates [rejected Islam]. Abu Bakr said: ‘I will definitely fight against anyone who stops paying the Zakat tax, for it is an obligation. I will fight against them even to secure the cord used for hobbling the feet of a camel which they used to pay if they withhold it now.’ Allah had justified fighting against those who refused to pay Zakat.”
Muslim:C9B1N33 “The Prophet said: ‘I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.’”
Muslim:C10B1N176 “Muhammad (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: ‘There is no god but Allah,’ but I attacked him with a spear anyway. It once occurred to me that I should ask the Apostle about this. The Messenger said: ‘Did he profess “There is no god but Allah,” and even then you killed him?’ I said: ‘He made a profession out of the fear of the weapon I was threatening him with.’ The Prophet said: ‘Did you tear out his heart in order to find out whether it had professed truly or not?’”
Muslim:C20B1N4597 “The Prophet said at the conquest of Mecca: ‘There is no migration now, but only Jihad, fighting for the Cause of Islam. When you are asked to set out on a Jihad expedition, you should readily do so.’”
Muslim:C28B20N4628 “Allah has undertaken to provide for one who leaves his home to fight for His Cause and to affirm the truth of His word; Allah will either admit him to Paradise or will bring him back home with his reward and booty.”
Muslim:C28B20N4629 “The Messenger said: ‘One who is wounded in the Way of Allah—and Allah knows best who is wounded in His Way—will appear on the Day of Judgment with his wound still bleeding. The color (of its discharge) will be blood, (but) its smell will be musk.’”
Muslim:C34B20N4652-3 “The Merit Of Jihad And Of Keeping Vigilance Over The Enemy: A man came to the Holy Prophet and said: ‘Who is the best of men?’ He replied: ‘A man who fights staking his life and spending his wealth in Allah’s Cause.’”
Muslim:C42B20N4684 “A desert Arab came to the Prophet and said: ‘Messenger, one man fights for the spoils of war; another fights that he may be remembered, and one fights that he may see his (high) position (achieved as a result of his valor in fighting). Which of these is fighting in the Cause of Allah?’ The Messenger of Allah said: ‘Who fights so that the word of Allah is exalted is fighting in the Way of Allah.’”
Muslim:C53B20N4717 “The Prophet said: ‘This religion will continue to exist, and a group of people from the Muslims will continue to fight for its protection until the Hour is established.’”
Bukhari:V5B59N288 “I witnessed a scene that was dearer to me than anything I had ever seen. Aswad came to the Prophet while Muhammad was urging the Muslims to fight the pagans. He said, ‘We shall fight on your right and on your left and in front of you and behind you.’ I saw the face of the Prophet getting bright with happiness, for that saying delighted him.”
Bukhari:V5B59N290 “The believers who did not join the Ghazwa [Islamic raid or invasion] and those who fought are not equal in reward.”
Qur’an:2:193 “Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers.”
Qur’an:2:217 “They question you concerning fighting in the sacred month. Say: ‘Fighting therein is a grave (matter); but to prevent access to Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, to expel its members, and polytheism are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they make you renegades from your religion. If any of you turn back and die in unbelief, your works will be lost and you will go to Hell. Surely those who believe and leave their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause have the hope of Allah’s mercy.”
Qur’an:2:244 “Fight in Allah’s Cause, and know that Allah hears and knows all.”
Registered: 2003-12-22 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1295
Hi. Bible quotes.
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Grats on posting old testament commands given to a specific people for a specific period of time. Circumstances were very different until the coming of Christ.
If you knew anything about Christianity you would know Jesus said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". The old laws to the Jewish people are not Gods law to Christians. The ten commandments are.
And i agree with charkoth here. these were rules for the israelites long long ago to seperate these people from the rest of the heathen scum of that time. These rules seem strict but it was a roadway for a totally righteous people. You see if people dont do any of those things listed above then theres no need for that punishment... In other words you would have a people that:
Were not gay
would not practice withcraft
would not be rebelious to parents
would not cheat on spouses
would not worship a false god
would not make god look bad
this is what it comes down to. so look at the world today. you have everything opposite to the things i listed above and you know what? that is why this world is so wicked. Anyways the israelites did not keep the faith they disobeyed so many times and did not obey god so many times that god had enough of it and instead he made a new pact with a new people. he sent his son his firstborn of all creation, the first angel, jesus to make a new covenant. and anyone that believes in jesus would be his people. and thru the teaching of jesus, You learn from him to be a people that
are not gay
would not practice withcraft
would not be rebelious to parents
would not cheat on spouses
would not worship a false god
would not make god look bad
in the end this is simply what god wants of us. Even a gay person can be forgiven if he repents, even murderers. God is not an evil god. He made us and he has simple rules he wants us to follow. But thru free will you can choose to be the scumbag if you want but your life, this 70-120 years you have to live is all you get. the real reward is after the devil has been destroyed and man is restored to everlasting life and we get to explore new worlds.
God will one day unlock our minds and heal our bodys from this sin. we only use 20% of our brains. imagine if everyone on earth was three times as smart as einstein we would already have flying cars and free electricity and be seeding planets but the devils world we dont have that. Anyways the bible is the most wonderful book. read it cover to cover and you will have understanding.
I know your view on christianity is marred by the things you see on tv, flipping tv channels and seeing blue haired women on gold funiture preaching "your gonna burn in hell!" but thats not what real christianity is. thats a wolve in sheeps clothing mocking god. Or the screaming preacher up there sweating and yelling. thats not how jesus preaches. Jesus said stuff like:
"No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?"
anyways i could go on and on but i hope you get the point.
Registered: 2003-12-22 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1295
As predicted, you guys are making excuses, which just proves my point. There are Muslims who would make the same types of arguments about their own religion (LINK and LINK). You can't have it both ways.
Anyways, here's some more quotes from that site regarding slavery in the NEW TESTAMENT (not that it matters at all):
You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
Registered: 2003-04-09 Location: your mom's house Posts: 802
"On a Facebook account that Norwegian media outlets have attributed to Breivik, he describes himself as having Christian, conservative views. He says he enjoys hunting, the games World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2, and lives in Oslo. He also lists political analysis and stock analysis as interests."
Charkoth, do you have family in Norway? Just wondering...
I have a few friends in Oslo. One of them was walking in the street where the bomb went off about an hour before it happened. He is in shock about the event. What happened on the island is even worse, children around the age of 10-20 were killed by this madman. The total death count on the island is now 83 people. I just don't have words for this and I'm am deeply shocked about this event as well.
"Looks like it might not have been Islam at all. "
Like many of us have been saying for years, NOT ALL TERRORISTS ARE MUSLIM AND NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS!
In fact, the VAST MAJORITY of terrorist events are NOT ISLAMIC!
People are crazy for all sorts of reasons. Acting like only one group of people are crazy for only one group of reasons is not only racist and xenophobic but will actually make us less safe in the long-run.
Registered: 2003-03-20 Location: Irvine, CA Posts: 3637
Not all terrorists are muslim but most terrorists are muslim. Count up all the attacks and 2 (Oklahoma + This one) have been Christians. And typically they're like LONE or small groups of people vs. a whole organization using it as a method of war.
Not all terrorists are muslim but most terrorists are muslim. Count up all the attacks and 2 (Oklahoma + This one) have been Christians.
This might matter if either group (christian terrorists or muslim terrorists) amounted to more than a ridiculously small percentage of either population.
Registered: 2003-03-20 Location: Irvine, CA Posts: 3637
Fundalism Christians have killed people for years. Muslims have killed people for years.
We're supposed to be either the Christians or even Muslims that AREN'T KILLING PEOPLE. And we shouldn't be saying that's great my friends from my religion are killing people (aka most Muslim countries).
Your statement is irrelevant to this discussion, Nalcolm. I hope you see that.
Feel free to explain how any time you want.
OK, Nebu, now I get it;
Yes, I agree no one should be cheering on terrorism. Period. And that's way more of a problem in the middle east than it is here. But I think that's much more a reflection of the lack of education and jealous anti-american sentiments you generally find in third world nations (or even crappy first world nations) in regards to America.
Every muslim I've met who lives in America or Canada (where I spend most of my time) abhors bin laden and terrorism. It's only uneducated idiots that actually cheer for it. And you fix that with education.
Honestly, most people of any religion just ignore their religion when it comes to parts of it that are inconvenient for living in a first world nation. IE, most people have premarital sex, and use contraception.
Most muslims, even if MOST of them are uneducated sexists, aren't actually going to go try to kill westerners. That group represents such an exceedingly small amount of the population.
I mean, think about it. Millions of people stream across from Mexico to America. Most of the America/Canada border is totally unguarded. If most muslims wanted to go blow westerners up and get 72 virgins, they'd be taking planes and boats to Canada/Mexico and sneaking across the border and doing it.
Registered: 2003-04-09 Location: your mom's house Posts: 802
We're supposed to be either the Christians or even Muslims that AREN'T KILLING PEOPLE. And we shouldn't be saying that's great my friends from my religion are killing people (aka most Muslim countries).
Bah, Christianity is no better than Islam in this regard. Go ask the average Christian in the American midwest how they feel about violence against abortion providers and I'll bet their answer wouldn't be that different from asking the average Muslim Middle Easterner how they feel about violence against Americans. "Sure, I would never CONDONE it, but..."
Both religions have their infidels, and will similarly respond with aggression and outright violence when confronted with them. And when violence DOES occur, adherents of either religion will find ample justification for their actions in their respective scripture.
"i heard this was a false flag op, was hoping to get additional detail here from rrp. am not disappointed."
yes it most definitely is a false flag op. the killer was obviously a cia trained mindless killer who will be kept on drugs to keep him in lala land much like that jared loughner whos in jail right now.
I told you here the whole terrorism strata is being built for YOU the white guy who works 40 hours a week, is a good person who pays his bills. Homeland security was built for us americans. They have been slowly or i`de rather say quickly turning the terror machine around to focus on the real targets... YOU. Homeland security recently put out a video that says the real terrorists are white americans.
Exactly the plan they have been working on and now with the false flag oslo op they now have excuse to say its regular joes. so expect to see TSA get BIGGER expect to see cops abuse you more. Expect to see more flase flag ops with rediculous bullsh%&% saying "Joey donaldson"
Oh one more thing to post...the killer was a freemason. he had a picture on his facebook dressed in full mason regalia. Is the media saying anything about that???? NO A freemason christian....yeah right
see the photo yourself. The whole thing stinks of false flag
I've never even heard of a Christian that cheers an abortion clinic doctor getting assassinated. The people who do that are not doing it in the name of Christianity because it isn't written anywhere to do it in Christianity.
The majority of the world worships one god or another. If a crazy person who happens to be Christian or muslim or buddist kills hundreds of dozens of people he is just a crazy person.
If a group of extremists belonging to some religion kill hundreds of people in the name of their religion that is a fanatic. The reason people associate terrorists with muslims is because there are more groups of organized fanatics than Christians, and even Christian fanatics tend to be nonviolent.
Registered: 2003-04-09 Location: your mom's house Posts: 802
I've never even heard of a Christian that cheers an abortion clinic doctor getting assassinated. The people who do that are not doing it in the name of Christianity because it isn't written anywhere to do it in Christianity.
Uh, the Army of God has a website that's filled with their biblical justifications for assassinating abortion clinic doctors, amongst other things.
Now, would I argue that one could somehow draw some conclusion about all of Christianity based on the twisted interpretation of a fringe group like the Army of God? I suppose that depends on whether you think that a fringe group like Al Qaeda allows you to continue to draw conclusions about all of Islam. My conclusion will be the same about Christianity as yours is about Islam.
Nalcom, this discussion is in regards to this fellow being called a "christian" and performing this act- as if being a christian is identifiable to this sort of behavior. I was pointing out that him calling himself a christian is no different than me standing in my garage and calling myself a car. It is irrelevant whether 1.5 billion muslims are not attacking me personally, I listed their own scriptures that tell them to, in fact, do so. They do not do so in contradiction with their own leader. Maybe you were making the point for me? In that case I thank you, and apologize for the harsh criticism.
"Not all terrorists are muslim but most terrorists are muslim. Count up all the attacks and 2 (Oklahoma + This one) have been Christians. "
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005/terror02_05 - Scroll to the bottom. You can see a complete list of terrorist events. Keep in mind, besides 9/11 and Oklahoma City, not many people have died in these terrorist attacks. Still, Muslims do not make up "most terrorists."
Registered: 2003-12-22 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1295
So now Timothy McVeigh is "not as bad" because he only killed 168?
Nalcom, this discussion is in regards to this fellow being called a "christian" and performing this act- as if being a christian is identifiable to this sort of behavior. I was pointing out that him calling himself a christian is no different than me standing in my garage and calling myself a car. It is irrelevant whether 1.5 billion muslims are not attacking me personally, I listed their own scriptures that tell them to, in fact, do so. They do not do so in contradiction with their own leader. Maybe you were making the point for me? In that case I thank you, and apologize for the harsh criticism.
Nobody here seriously thinks Christianity is a breeding ground for terrorism. What we are saying is that Islam isn't either.
1) I posted Bible scripture that is just as bad, or worse, than what you posted from the Qur'an.
2) Predictably, you guys made excuses about the old testament and "context," to which I responded with two links to Muslim scholars doing the same thing with their own scripture. Actually, their explanations make a lot more sense than just "well, that was the old testament and Jesus said that doesn't count any more."
So either...
a) they are both horrible religions that tell people to do evil things.
b) they both contain scriptures that are frequently taken out of context to justify hatred towards them.
c) you are like the other millions of people on both sides who apply a double standard when considering a religion and culture you don't understand and fear.
Nalcom, this discussion is in regards to this fellow being called a "christian" and performing this act- as if being a christian is identifiable to this sort of behavior. I was pointing out that him calling himself a christian is no different than me standing in my garage and calling myself a car. It is irrelevant whether 1.5 billion muslims are not attacking me personally, I listed their own scriptures that tell them to, in fact, do so. They do not do so in contradiction with their own leader. Maybe you were making the point for me? In that case I thank you, and apologize for the harsh criticism.
Actually, for me this discussion was about how certain people assume that you can paint 1.5 billion people with the same brush because of the actions of a remarkably small number of them.
Because like most people, I really don't care what someone's bible tells them to do, given that most everyone ignores the vast majority of their scriptures. I do care about how people actually act. If people were being terrorists because the quran tells them to, we'd have 1.5 billion terrorists.
Instead, as you would expect, we have a really small radical fringe.
See, what you may not have realized is that no one here is saying 'look, he did this because he's a Christian.' They're pointing out the hypocrisy of labeling an entire group of people for the actions of a few that share some common label while rejecting that this can also be done to them.
regarding the bolded: If you want to keep looking up kilts in search of that one true Scotsman, you go right ahead. I guess if no true Christian does awful things, we can rest assured that the vast majority of muslims are in fact not true muslims, as they aren't doing the horrible things that their scripture tells them to. Either way, you can stop grouping 1.5 billion people with a few terrorists who use scripture as an excuse for their crimes and sleep easier at night.
Registered: 2009-09-04 Location: Arizona and New Mexico Posts: 4
Nalcolm nailed it on the head. It`s just being highlighted that Christians do this kind of stuff too not just Muslim`s. I would argue that the underlying theme is that any human is capable of doing such horrible things.
Seriously "Army of God"? Are you serious? Show me one bible verse that says to kill abortionists, and put it in context of Jesus Christ's teachings, not God's commands to Israel.
And I wasn't speaking of the US DF, I was speaking of terrorist attacks period. The US is much more secure than other countries and our freedoms allow for an environment that isn't conducive to terrorism.
Do you know how many people were killed in terrorist acts in the name of religion in other countries? How many plane bombings, base bombings, car bombinbs, suicide bombs were commited by Muslim terrorists? How many by "Christian" terrorists?
The motivations of this man and his community`s ideology is similar to the atheistic regimes that sought to stamp out religion by killing it`s adherents and deterring via terror others from following suit. Eerily similar to Dawkin`s rantings against religion and other new-atheists. I believe you can draw a direct parallel between their motivations, and practice (in words, and deeds).
Registered: 2003-12-22 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1295
our freedoms allow for an environment that isn't conducive to terrorism.
What an outrageous statement. Having more freedom allows terrorists to target us easier. Loss of freedom would make it easier to fight terrorism.
I assume what you are trying to say is that our freedoms make us less likely to become terrorists, or to create terrorists from within our population, but that's not what you said.
I would agree with that. Repressive fundamentalist conservatism in the middle east is part of what allows terrorism to fester. The irony is that people like you don't see the same dangers in your own repressive fundamentalism.
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2254
9/11/2001 New York, NY Aircraft Attack Al-Qa’ida 2972
4/19/1995 Oklahoma City, OK Truck Bombing Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols 168
If we're going to go ahead and keep score and have arbitrary numbers decide our opinions on Ideologies, let's do it correctly. One must account for accuracy relative to the population.
So relative to the population, there were almost twice as many deaths in Norway than 9/11 in the United States.
So I think that puts wacko Fundamentalist Christians in the lead now?
i have heard that amy winehouse was also murdered as part of the plot to bring on the new world order so frankly i think that should be added to the norway death count.
Registered: 2008-10-27 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida Posts: 980
Also please note that Christianity is responsible for the formation of the greatest free nations in the world, where equality is paramount.
And then you have Islam, which has a handful of shitball dirt pit countries with tons of piss-poor citizens, a Shiekh or two with a billion zillion dollars, and maybe a few warlords with a millions in heroin money, and they still stone and beat women for showing a little ankle in their capital cities. Oh, and they totally love genocide over there.
BUT CHRISTIANS ARE TOTALLY THE BAD GUYZ TOO! Even though our countries donate billions in aid to all the other shit pit countries and have spread the notion of equality around the world (Oh, except Africa and the Middle East - coincidentally two of the major bastions for Islam. Weird coincidence!)
Just look at the facts. Some of you guys are just ridiculous trying to trash Christianity. It has its problems, but you really can't compare it to Islam when you actually examine it without some perverse liberal agenda.
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2254
It's about number of deaths, not number of attacks.
That's completely missing the point entirely.
We shouldn't be concerned with the amount of death, you should be concerned with why they are doing what they are doing and how.
What the hell is wrong with you? So you're essentially saying that Terrorist acts are ok as long as it kills more than 100 people or something? I get the point that you hate Muslim Fundamentalists more than Christian Fundamentalists, but jesus christ, just say it instead of hiding behind these absolutely retarded talking points.
If you truly want to get the sum of all deaths through Terrorist type means, you better as shit have a lot more than just those two numbers. But then again, you are seriously saying to the families of those murdered in Norway or Oklahoma City that their deaths weren't as meaningful because there just plain wasn't enough of them.
That. Is. Fucked.
Terrorism knows no ideology or political affiliation. Stop pretending like it does.
jdhelmet Nebu should remove the "Good is" from your status I think.
It's obvious you read and see what you want to see just like you picked what you wanted to see out of my statement. I mentioned the fact we are more secure AND our freedoms in the US are not conducive to terrorism because education, the highest standard of living in the world and the richest poor people in the world are not a good breeding ground for people who can be brainwashed by some radical idealogue into giving their lives to kill someone they have never met or have issue with.
If you want to find countries that are almost the exact opposite of our country look no further than the Middle East....which surprise contain almost all Muslim countries....and thus prove our point.
And please explain to me how Psalm 55:15 says to kill abortionists. You can't because Psalm 55 is a song from King Daid to God, not a command from God to men. The song is about David asking for deliverance from evil people who worked against him and God.
You'd have known this if you had an IQ above room temperature or if you'd spent more than 2 seconds copying a verse that by itself obviously isn't a command to kill anyone, yet alone search for the entire psalm to understand the context of the verse before firing it off like some damning evidence of evil.
And Joe, the Norway guy may have styled himself as a Christian but he hasn't to my knowledge said he did what he did because of his religion which is a major distinction between the two religions. There is nothing in Christianity that tells people to kill in the name of Christ....NOTHING. If you quote stuff out of the old Testament you damn well better know what you're talking about before you sound like a bigger moron than jdhelmet.
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2254
Also please note that Christianity is responsible for the formation of the greatest free nations in the world, where equality is paramount.
I think I understand what you're saying, but you aren't serious are you? If you are, please post the years founded, by whom, what they followed and how that ideology helped the country progress.
Or else all that shit you posted in the following paragraphs is just ignorance-filled rhetoric.
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2254
If you quote stuff out of the old Testament you damn well better know what you're talking about before you sound like a bigger moron than jdhelmet.
I'm not going to. I find it absolutely disgusting how much people here seem to find it necessary to compare Islam and Christianity like they're two NFL Teams trying to make the playoffs.
And sadly enough, it's mostly the people 'defending' Christianity who are saying some of the worst statements in justifying some half-assed argument. No one here is acting Christian-like in trying to display compassion, turning the other cheek or keeping from personal attacks.
And Joe, the Norway guy may have styled himself as a Christian but he hasn't to my knowledge said he did what he did because of his religion which is a major distinction between the two religions. There is nothing in Christianity that tells people to kill in the name of Christ....NOTHING.
Perhaps not word for word, but are you telling me that nothing has ever been misinterpreted? That the only things done nowadays are done because it explicitly is said in the Bible?
Oh and in case you guys did not know. islam started when the pope at that time wanted to take back jerusalem so he hired an arab named mohammad and with the full backing of the catholic church they pushed that he was a prophet came up with a full backstory and islam was born complete with their own gospel (the quran) But the pope didnt expect islam to get so big it grew legs of its own. a made up religion...islam. Their so called prophet took a 6 year old girl to be his wife.
No I'm not so naive as to say people don't misinterpret the Bible, they do, people in the Westboro Baptist "Church" twist biblical verses and take them out of such context to suit their needs.
I'm only defending the Christian faith from a standpoint of there is nothing in it to advocate violence on your fellow man. Plenty of crazy people do crazy things but when people try to say it is because they are Christian I'll put them straight.
As far as Islam is concerned I know nothing of Islam nor do I profess to, all I'm pointing out is the fact tjat most terrorist acts in the world are commited by Muslims from Muslim ruled countries.
Maybe that is the result of a country that is ruled by religious leaders or tyrants or whatever but you wont find a Christian country with these problems because Christians don't kill others except in war.
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2254
No I'm not so naive as to say people don't misinterpret the Bible, they do, people in the Westboro Baptist "Church" twist biblical verses and take them out of such context to suit their needs.
I'm only defending the Christian faith from a standpoint of there is nothing in it to advocate violence on your fellow man. Plenty of crazy people do crazy things but when people try to say it is because they are Christian I'll put them straight.
As far as Islam is concerned I know nothing of Islam nor do I profess to, all I'm pointing out is the fact tjat most terrorist acts in the world are commited by Muslims from Muslim ruled countries.
Given how little you really know about Islam, why are you then turning around and making such accusatory remarks when people are simply trying to say what you said in your first paragraph? And these terrorist acts are beginning from when? What time period are you cherry-picking for that completely baseless claim?
Maybe that is the result of a country that is ruled by religious leaders or tyrants or whatever but you wont find a Christian country with these problems because Christians don't kill others except in war.
You ever read about Africa by any chance? Religious Ideologies aren't getting anyone killed there, that's for sure!
Maybe that is the result of a country that is ruled by religious leaders or tyrants or whatever but you wont find a Christian country with these problems because Christians don't kill others except in war.
Modern history Joe...I hope you're not going to try to bring up the Crusades or something...
I'm talking about terrorist acts, not lone gunmen going on a crazy shooting spreed. Terrorist acts typically involve blowing something up with massive casualties. Do I need to point out every terrorist act commited by muslim extremists in Europe, Israel, Iraq etc ?
Africa has no declared Christian nations, although Zimbabwe is close. There are more Muslims in Africa than Christians and the heaviest population of Muslims in northern Africa coincide with the countries with the most issues: Egypt, Libya, Sudan, Ethopia, Nigeria, Somalia.....all Muslim supermajority nations.
21 years for all that. I have to say, things like that are what happen when your society is ruled by a bunch of liberals. They should have put the guy down with a bullet to the head after extracting all the information they needed to find any possible accomplices etc.
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2254
Cherry picking definitions as well?
ter·ror·ism/ˈterəˌrizəm/
Noun: The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
I don't see where lone gunmen are exempt. And all I needed was one death to prove your generalizing statement wrong: Maybe that is the result of a country that is ruled by religious leaders or tyrants or whatever but you wont find a Christian country with these problems because Christians don't kill others except in war.
Also, given how broad your statements are, why shouldn't I bring up the Crusades? You apparently are the one who is unable to come up with anything other than just hyperbole and conjecture. Given Religion's importance throughout time (the further back you go, the more important and influential it is), why should we ignore the History?
things like that are what happen when your society is ruled by a bunch of liberals.
Yeah, poor Norway with their efficient penal system and nearly nonexistent crime. They should really copy the American penal system, because it plainly works so damned well.
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2254
Yeah, poor Norway with their efficient penal system and nearly nonexistent crime. They should really copy the American penal system, because it plainly works so damned well.
Joe that definition isn't the definition that the majority of Americans would use and certainly not what we are speaking of, maybe Google can explain that one for you too.
Yeah a penal system so "efficient" you can get away with murder! It is disgusting you think a man a man who commits mass murder should only serve 21 years.
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2254
Then give me something instead of generalizing bullshit Charkoth. What is this magical definition you would like to use?
Yeah a penal system so "efficient" you can get away with murder! It is disgusting you think a man a man who commits mass murder should only serve 21 years.
It's a different country with different peoples, a different upbringing, a different approach to society. It really isn't that difficult to understand why they have differing laws.
Of course the 21 year max sentence is a fault, most if not all of Norway is saying that right now, however it is how their Penal system worked until this point. Now that there is an extreme example of how this type of sentencing doesn't work quite right, a fix may be required.
However, there needs to be thought given so that this sort of sentence isn't then abused for those folks who do not deserve it.
Despite how hard you try, Charkoth, these type of events can't be boiled down to one liners like:
"You can't cure a rabid dog." or "Fuckin terrorists. Kill them all."
Those belong in a movie like Tango and Cash, not adult conversation.
Generalizing like :"You ever read about Africa by any chance? Religious Ideologies aren't getting anyone killed there, that's for sure!"
You want to make a point then prove it. Stop trying to google-jockey everything I say just because something or someone on the internet says otherwise.
There is no universally agreed, legally binding, criminal law definition of Terrorism.
Why can't this be boiled down to a one-liner? Should we try and rehabilitate this guy? Find out what went wrong in his childhood? Maybe you'd like to invite him over for a cup of tea with your family when he is out if Prison?
Why should society pay the cost of incarceration on a guy who confessed to the crime with 100% damning evidence it was him? Put a bullet in his head, chalk it up to someone who obviously was mental and move on! How is that for adult conversation?
Yeah a penal system so "efficient" you can get away with murder! It is disgusting you think a man a man who commits mass murder should only serve 21 years.
A penal system so efficient that there are hardly any murderers. Compared to a penal system that turns criminals into worse criminals. You're using an outlying case to condemn the entirety of a system which is designed to (and does) work against the majority of crime. Whereas the American system, while capable of punishing this type of offense better than the Norwegian system, otherwise is outright awful for actually dealing with the majority of crime.
So, fair enough, it sucks that this is one of those cases where you have to look at a competent legal system and say 'it's a shame this guy will live.' But if you actually think that the American penal system is better than Norwegian one? Well, you're just ignorant. Scandinavian countries kick ass for crime reduction and rehabilitating prisoners into useful citizens.
Yeah. It sucks the guy will be in solitary confinement for life, because he deserves to die. But to use an outlying case to say that their system is outright worse than ours? What a bunch of utterly uninformed garbage.
In short: you're applying an emotional response to an evaluation (what penal systems work) that should only involve a rational response. While I'd agree that this guy will serve no purpose being alive, I'm rational enough to acknowledge that such a failing of the Norwegian penal system is an acceptable one, measured against their overall success to ours.
The two top links regard the support of a bill to make Killing Gays legal (which is already done anyway). Supported by US Christian Group (those crazy fundies).
http://twofortheroad.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/06/21/killing-in-the-name-of-god/
About Nkunda’s "Religious" mission.
And since all I was doing was referring to your baseless claim of:
Maybe that is the result of a country that is ruled by religious leaders or tyrants or whatever but you wont find a Christian country with these problems because Christians don't kill others except in war.
I'll be awaiting your links to prove that Christians don't kill others except in war.
Also waiting for your definition of Terrorism that contains details that you claim are there, but when others make their claims (regarding it to be general in nature, and not specific to a religion) - they are wrong. Also waiting on that time period where you believe Islamic Fundamentalists have committed more Terrorist acts than Christian Fundamentalists (I want a real timeline, not one that suits your points, I want to know why you chose the specific era given that you and apparently others that believe similarly have chosen).
Also, I'd love to know how shooting the guy in the head is Christian-like, you know, by New Testament "Today's" standards.
Hardly any murderers compared to who? Their published murder rate excludes attempted murder which typically accounts for 75% of murders in countries like the US which report murder attempts as murders for statistics. It could also be noted that 90% of Norweigans are Evangelical Christians.
In Oslo the crime rate is over 4 times higher than that of New York.
I'm surely not a proponent of the US justice system however....I'm just saying it is ridiculous that someone can commit mass murder and not only not face Capital Punishment, but get a sentence that is comparable to Manslaughter in the US.
Either way I don't think the penal system is directly proportional to the crime rate in a given country either....I think the general social makeup lends itself to the crime rate.
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2254
Either way I don't think the penal system is directly proportional to the crime rate in a given country either....I think the general social makeup lends itself to the crime rate.
I assumed that the laws were on the books for some time, and was suitable up until this tipping point. Essentially, they didn't create these laws with this sort of event in mind. I'm not sure if it was done on purpose, accidentally, naively or what.
I'm very intrigued as to what the country does in the wake of this situation. 99% of the population seems to be behind some sort of 'rotting-away-in-a-cell' solution, however it really isn't a good precedent to set: Changing the punishment after the guy is caught.
I know, I know, the guy committed heinous crimes, but it wouldn't be the first time a package of laws was brought about as a reaction, and then used in a way that is questionable in the future.
I wouldn't mind seeing everyone who lost family get 5 cracks with a whiffle ball bat followed by the rest of Norway. It's not as immediate as an aluminum or wooden bat, but shit, after 30,000 cracks, I'm fairly sure it would end up lethal.
Or maybe attach his balls to a burning building, then give him a rusty tin can lid as his only means of separation. That's always a good one.
Registered: 2003-12-22 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1295
Plenty of crazy people do crazy things but when people try to say it is because they are Christian I'll put them straight.
As will the vast majority of Muslims when you accuse their religion of the same. This is the ONLY thing I am trying to say, but you keep acting like I'm attacking your religion.
As far as Islam is concerned I know nothing of Islam nor do I profess to, all I'm pointing out is the fact tjat most terrorist acts in the world are commited by Muslims from Muslim ruled countries.
And this is factually verifiable as FALSE. Perception does not equal reality, except in your mind.
Maybe that is the result of a country that is ruled by religious leaders or tyrants or whatever but you wont find a Christian country with these problems because Christians don't kill others except in war.
The IRA (Catholic) and the KKK (Southern evangelical Christians) say hi.
Registered: 2003-03-20 Location: Irvine, CA Posts: 3637
I'm talking about terrorist acts, not lone gunmen going on a crazy shooting spreed. Terrorist acts typically involve blowing something up with massive casualties. Do I need to point out every terrorist act commited by muslim extremists in Europe, Israel, Iraq etc ?
My point also. In thise case, however, it was a nut job and not some massive group. Nut jobs have always been out there trying this sort of thing, this guy just had a massive success at it.
The most dangerous and successful terrorist attacks come from Islam. They should always be profiled.
The only issue here was that it was reported it was a mulsim attack when it turned out to not be.
The the next issue is oh he's a Christian. The follow-up question will always be, was he a part of a massive effort by a group of Christians. No, it's always some nut job small group. The difference with the terrorist attacks is that it's a army of people with funding by major governments (in secret) that is being used to attack us through acts of war.
As you read the internet you usually see two things (from the many atheists online): God killed the most people in the bible, and Christians have killed people for years. That's great. We heard your 1-liner. That's your choice to not believe in god. But that doesn't make Christians the #1 enemy in the world. We don't have to be attacked and continue to accept the countries and religions that are behind it.
America does go after small "Christian" groups that use violence to advance their goals or beliefs and rightly so. No one should be blowing up abortion clinics. No one should be killing babies (unless rape). No one should be gunning down a bunch of teens on an island. No one should be attacking countries without a REAL and immediate threat (Iraq) unless there's some loot to be gained (Oil).
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html
Hey dumb shits who are the bad guys? Yes, people of all types attack but what is the #1 threat? Who should we focus on as our enemy? It's a joke whenever idiots bring up the crusades and try to use Christians as a current threat. We ally with many countries that hate us in this fight against terror also. Where did all the 9/11 attackers come from?
Also if the Christians weren't defending Western Europe we'd all be islam people and have the wonderful culture those middle east countries provide (Iran, Syria, etc).
1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.
1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.
> Disgruntled Government employees is an age old tale. Esp since the government often f's them over.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.
2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)
2003 1
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.
2009 - Dec. 25: A Nigerian man on a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit attempted to ignite an explosive device hidden in his underwear. The explosive device that failed to detonate was a mixture of powder and liquid that did not alert security personnel in the airport. The alleged bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, told officials later that he was directed by the terrorist group Al Qaeda. The suspect was already on the government's watch list when he attempted the bombing; his father, a respected Nigerian banker, had told the U.S. government that he was worried about his son's increased extremism.
Beirut barracks bombing on October 23, 1983 in Beirut, Lebanon. Killed 241 American servicemen: 220 Marines, 18 Navy personnel and three Army soldiers, along with sixty Americans injured, representing the deadliest single-day death toll for the United States Marine Corps since the Battle of Iwo Jima.
Lockerbie bombing on Wednesday 21 December 1988, Killing 270 people, 190 of them Americans
jdHelmet I'm not the guy bringing up verses from the Koran am I? You brought up verses from the Bible on two different occasions, none of which abdicated what you were trying to proclaim. I brought up my only point that the majority of major terrorist attacks were perpetrated by Muslims which is a fact.
It is also a fact that there are more Christians in the world than Muslims so I'll let people draw their own conclusions...
Registered: 2003-03-20 Location: Irvine, CA Posts: 3637
Why the fuck in 2011 are you still arguing with people about who the bad guys are. To me, it's whoever is killing the most people. But go after EVERYONE who is up to no good. Why anyone is even arguing about that anymore 10 years later...
The government keeps befriending bad guys to get other bad guys (Pakistan). Then the next day, we'll be enemies with them again. It's a stupid endless cycle. Retreat out of these nonsense countries. Just increase the border security and holes so that these assholes can't get in, and let them all blow themselves up in their wonderful dirt countries.
But please go after all the government abuse such as 200 billion to contractors to fix other countries.
Registered: 2003-12-22 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1295
It's like arguing with a wall. We aren't saying Christians are the #1 enemy or kill people in the name of their god. The only reason I posted Bible verses was to respond to "Buket" who posted Qur'an verses. Both books have messed up stuff if you read it a certain way, and both sides make strong arguments that their religion is about peace and love. You can argue all day about who is right and wrong, I don't care in the slightest because I know you are all wrong anyway.
My point is you shouldn't accuse 1.5 billion people of being a part of some evil movement to destroy Christians, posting hateful things like Charkoth and Buket to paint a quarter of the worlds population as evil dogs that need to be put down. They are religious people with families and communities and love for their fellow man just as you are. You idiots are brainwashed by the media to think that every Muslim out there wants you dead because of your freedom or religion or whatever. It would be sad if it wasn't so dangerously stupid. You need to visit a mosque, or at the very least actually talk to some real Muslims and make some friends. You are ignorantly spewing vile hatred towards people you know nothing about.
Registered: 2003-04-09 Location: your mom's house Posts: 802
It's awesome that this huge thread about how terrible Islam is came in response to some Christian guy going nuts in Norway. It's no wonder those guys hate us.
Registered: 2003-12-22 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1295
Not that I expect facts or reality to change anything around here, but:
* Gallup conducted tens of thousands of hour-long, face-to-face interviews with residents of more than 35 predominantly Muslim countries between 2001 and 2007. It found that – contrary to the prevailing perception in the west that the actions of al-Qaeda enjoy wide support in the Muslim world – more than 90% of respondents condemned the killing of non-combatants on religious and humanitarian grounds.[77]
* A 2005 Pew Research study that involved 17,000 people in 17 countries showed support for terrorism was declining in the Muslim world along with a growing belief that Islamic extremism represents a threat to those countries.[80] A Daily Telegraph survey[81] showed that 88% of Muslims said the July 2005 bombings in the London Underground were unjustified, while 6% disagreed.
* In Pakistan, despite the recent rise in the Taliban's influence, a poll conducted by Terror Free Tomorrow in Pakistan in January 2008 tested support for al-Qaeda, the Taliban, other militant Islamist groups and Osama bin Laden himself, and found a recent drop by half. In August 2007, 33% of Pakistanis expressed support for al-Qaeda; 38% supported the Taliban. By January 2008, al-Qaeda's support had dropped to 18%, the Taliban's to 19%. When asked if they would vote for al-Qaeda, just 1% of Pakistanis polled answered in the affirmative. The Taliban had the support of 3% of those polled.[77]
* In Iraq, people of all persuasions unanimously reject the terror tactics against Iraqi civilians by the local al-Qaida. An ABC News/BBC/NHK poll revealed that all of those surveyed – Sunni and Shi'a alike – found al-Qaida attacks on Iraqi civilians "unacceptable"; 98% rejected the militants' attempts to gain control over areas in which they operated; and 97% opposed their attempts to recruit foreign fighters and bring them to Iraq.
Registered: 2003-12-22 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1295
Is the Christian Science Monitor a good source? Link
WASHINGTON
Those who think that Muslim countries and pro-terrorist attitudes go hand-in-hand might be shocked by new polling research: Americans are more approving of terrorist attacks against civilians than any major Muslim country except for Nigeria.
The survey, conducted in December 2006 by the University of Maryland's prestigious Program on International Public Attitudes, shows that only 46 percent of Americans think that "bombing and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians" are "never justified," while 24 percent believe these attacks are "often or sometimes justified."
Contrast those numbers with 2006 polling results from the world's most-populous Muslim countries – Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nigeria. Terror Free Tomorrow, the organization I lead, found that 74 percent of respondents in Indonesia agreed that terrorist attacks are "never justified"; in Pakistan, that figure was 86 percent; in Bangladesh, 81 percent.
Do these findings mean that Americans are closet terrorist sympathizers?
Hardly. Yet, far too often, Americans and other Westerners seem willing to draw that conclusion about Muslims. Public opinion surveys in the United States and Europe show that nearly half of Westerners associate Islam with violence and Muslims with terrorists. Given the many radicals who commit violence in the name of Islam around the world, that's an understandable polling result.
But these stereotypes, affirmed by simplistic media coverage and many radicals themselves, are not supported by the facts – and they are detrimental to the war on terror. When the West wrongly attributes radical views to all of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims, it perpetuates a myth that has the very real effect of marginalizing critical allies in the war on terror.
Indeed, the far-too-frequent stereotyping of Muslims serves only to reinforce the radical appeal of the small minority of Muslims who peddle hatred of the West and others as authentic religious practice.
Terror Free Tomorrow's 20-plus surveys of Muslim countries in the past two years reveal another surprise: Even among the minority who indicated support for terrorist attacks and Osama bin Laden, most overwhelmingly approved of specific American actions in their own countries. For example, 71 percent of bin Laden supporters in Indonesia and 79 percent in Pakistan said they thought more favorably of the United States as a result of American humanitarian assistance in their countries – not exactly the profile of hard-core terrorist sympathizers. For most people, their professed support of terrorism/bin Laden can be more accurately characterized as a kind of "protest vote" against current US foreign policies, not as a deeply held religious conviction or even an inherently anti- American or anti-Western view.
In truth, the common enemy is violence and terrorism, not Muslims any more than Christians or Jews. Whether recruits to violent causes join gangs in Los Angeles or terrorist cells in Lahore, the enemy is the violence they exalt.
Our surveys show that not only do Muslims reject terrorism as much if not more than Americans, but even those who are sympathetic to radical ideology can be won over by positive American actions that promote goodwill and offer real hope.
America's goal, in partnership with Muslim public opinion, should be to defeat terrorists by isolating them from their own societies. The most effective policies to achieve that goal are the ones that build on our common humanity. And we can start by recognizing that Muslims throughout the world want peace as much as Americans do.
jdHelmet I think none of those things. I have several Muslim friends that I play games with every day and I've never had a problem with them.
All I've been trying to say is that Muslim countries have been breeding grounds for terrorism moreso than any other countries, I would say that is more due to their society and leaders than the dictates of Muhammed. I KNOW the vast overwhelming majority of muslims don't condone violence, but I don't know the Koran like I do the bible which is why I'm not quoting the Koran.
I've never said to kill Muslims only terrorists like the dog in Norway....and that isn't a Christian view...that is a citizen's view based upon the laws of our free society.
I also agree with Nebu that we are supporting countries that hate us and we need to stop doing it.....but the end results of that will end up being the complete collapse of the middle East.
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2254
The the next issue is oh he's a Christian. The follow-up question will always be, was he a part of a massive effort by a group of Christians. No, it's always some nut job small group. The difference with the terrorist attacks is that it's a army of people with funding by major governments (in secret) that is being used to attack us through acts of war.
Wut? I believe you fired the first shot with your wise-crack about the Religion of Peace.
As you read the internet you usually see two things (from the many atheists online): God killed the most people in the bible, and Christians have killed people for years. That's great. We heard your 1-liner. That's your choice to not believe in god. But that doesn't make Christians the #1 enemy in the world. We don't have to be attacked and continue to accept the countries and religions that are behind it.
Again, I don't believe anyone said that Christians were the #1 enemy in the world.
I was defending Buket's claim that Islam is based around committing violence against non-believers, and your claim that Islam is winning in the NFL (Notorious Fundamentalist League).
You guys are defending so adamantly against arguments no one here really made... It boggles my mind how guilty a conscious like that is.
I mean, jesus fucking christ, bad people are bad - and guys like these pop up once every blue moon. Why do we have to use this event as an excuse to generalize an entire people? Can't we spend the first week grieving with Norway and talking shit about the killer??
What`s scary is how competent and rational this guy was compared to the muslim fanatics that abuse their religion. I still haven`t seen any evidence that this guy believed he was doing God`s work, maybe it`s there maybe not, I just haven`t seen it. It`s clear when someone is shouting ALLAH AKBAR that they think they are caring out God`s work, what has this white guy said?
This guy was also a steroids abuser, and used steroids to keep his morale up for killing people.
"Scandinavian countries kick ass for crime reduction and rehabilitating prisoners into useful citizens."
Scandinavian countries also kick ass at having a large white populations. Nalcolm be careful when favorably comparing a near all white society vs a diverse population. I thought diversity was the highest good, not whiteness.
Here is part of his writing. This was the only positive beliefs I could see:
"A majority of so called agnostics and atheists in Europe are cultural conservative Christians without even knowing it. So what is the difference between cultural Christians and religious Christians?
If you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God then you are a religious Christian. Myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God. We do however believe in Christianity as a cultural, social, identity and moral platform. This makes us Christian (p. 1307)."
This hardly makes him a fundamentalist Christian.Here`s more:
It is indeed well-known that Christianity has been guilty of
numerous temple destructions and persecutions. But the reason for this fanaticism is
found in the common theological foundation of both religions: exclusivist prophetic
monotheism. The case against Christianity is at once a case against Islam.(p45)
more:
Finally, Christianity is, by and large, facing the facts of its own
history, though it’s still struggling with the need to own up the responsibility for these
facts.
Gold mine. He doesn`t smear Christian fundamentalists in the US when mentioning them. Surely that makes him a Christian fundamentalist:
In the U.S., Christian fundamentalists and
Islamic organisations are increasingly creating common platforms to speak out
against trends of moral decay (abortion, pornography, etc.). Some of these
phenomena of traditionalist alliance-building are quite respectable, but they are
nevertheless conducive to Islam negationism.
He`s quite rational and even-handed here:
"Many nominal Muslims have outgrown Islamic values and developed a
commitment to modern values, but their sentimental attachment to the religion
imbibed in their childhood prevents them from formally breaking with Islam and
makes them paint a rosy picture of it."
His political views are best described as conservative: "I believe Europe should strive for:
A cultural conservative approach where monoculturalism, moral, the nuclear family, a
free market, support for Israel and our Christian cousins of the east, law and order and
Christendom itself must be central aspects (unlike now). Islam must be re-classified as a
political ideology and the Quran and the Hadith banned as the genocidal political tools
they are."
I can practically feel the fundamentalism leaping off the screen!:
"The goal must obviously not be to create a new theocracy. Europe will still remain
predominantly secular. However, the Churches primary role will be to contribute to unity
by offering cultural and spiritual opportunities. The Church will once again be allowed to
do what it was intended to do; to propagate and maintain cultural unity through pre
defined rituals and celebrations. Christendom is after all the primary factor that unites all
Europeans. We should therefore strive to create a united Church through reforming it,
which ends up as a Church worthy of our respect."
Haha jdlordhelmut, I did a google search for muslim support for terror and this is the first link that came up, your CSMonitor link came up second....
"Most notably, the survey finds that terrorism is not a monolithic concept--support for terrorist activity depends importantly on its type and on the location in which it occurs. For example, Moroccans overwhelmingly disapprove of suicide bombings against civilians, but, among respondents in the six predominantly Muslim countries surveyed, they are the most likely to see it as a justifiable tactic against Americans and other westerners in Iraq. Opinions about the United States, its attitudes in dealing with the larger world and the Iraq war are also powerful factors in shaping support for terrorism, as are perceptions that Islam is under threat. With the exception of gender, demographic differences, including income, explain little if anything about attitudes toward terrorism in the Muslim world, but country-specific differences are significant, suggesting the importance of local social, political and religious conditions."
Yeah, if Muslims are increasingly getting attacked by terror groups then of course their support for "terrorism" will drop. This is what happened in Iraq.
It all depends on who is getting attacked.
Who? Whom? Who is doing the Terror to Whom.
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