I'd be all aboard nationalized health care if our system was in any way comparable to the best ones from other countries. But we're idiots.
"Breaking with the court's other conservative justices, Chief Justice John Roberts announced the judgment that allows the law to go forward with its aim of covering more than 30 million uninsured Americans. Roberts explained at length the court's view of the mandate as a valid exercise of Congress' authority to "lay and collect taxes." The administration estimates that roughly 4 million people will pay the penalty rather than buy insurance."
"More than eight in 10 Americans already have health insurance. But for most of the 50 million who are uninsured, the ruling offers the promise of guaranteed coverage at affordable prices. Lower-income and many middle-class families will be eligible for subsidies to help pay premiums starting in 2014."
I've been looking at this carefully, and a few things pop out:
First, Roberts clearly delineated a line in the sand regarding Commerce Clause and Necessary and Proper Clause in terms of the power of the legislative branch, signalling a possible trend reversal that started with FDRs New Deal which essentially gave congress unlimited power (though some cases had carved out specific exemptions, the lopez case for example).
Second, by specifically interpreting the individual mandate as a tax, the Supreme Court ensures that (under current Senate rules) only a simple majority is required to overturn the law as filibuster can not be used. Interestingly, not even a majority would be required in the Senate to repeal the law as in the case of a 50/50 tie, the VP casts the tie-breaker.
As a corollary to point two, the court has killed the argument on the left about this not being a tax increase (and put a whole bunch of egg on the face of everyone who had argued that it was not a tax). Will people be as up in arms about this as they were about going into Iraq? I expect that this will be many, many times more expensive than the war...casualties may be hard to calculate, but they will be heavy once care starts getting rationed.
The biggest problem I have is the relative unenforcability of the mandate. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that a sizable percentage of the folks without insurance are also economically strapped. So the answer is the government is going to require them to buy low cost insurance or face a penalty?
From an Ivory Tower perspective, it's all well and good to say, "this will work if we get everyone to pay." But we live in reality, and there will be plenty of people that say, "F you, I'm not paying, and I've got nothing to give. So why don't you send me a bill and see what happens. Oh, you're going to penalize me? Haha, get in line with all my other creditors."
The only way to force these people to give is to garnish any public assistance they receive, and keep a ledger of all their arrears. If they're getting $1000 / month in assistance and the cost of the mandate is $150 / month, then take that money right off the top before disbursing funds. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if some bleeding heart Democrats would block such a maneuver by arguing that it's too extreme to lower the income of people who already make little or no income. So the same people who are cramming this down our throats with the promise that the mandate will pay for Obamacare will probably be the same ones who stand in the way of actually enforcing the collection of the mandated premiums. I think that's called having your cake and eating it too. Just watch.
I'll be curious to see the true cost and source of funding for this health care law. Sounds like more debt and / or tax increases to me. Of course tax increases are only a problem if you pay taxes...
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2245
I'd be all aboard nationalized health care if our system was in any way comparable to the best ones from other countries.
Then vote out the idiots that dragged their feet and refused to add anything constructive to the discussion when the Bill was originally presented (hint: most of them have an R by their name).
I personally couldn't be happier with the ruling: logic, pragmatism and rationalism prevail!
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2245
Will people be as up in arms about this as they were about going into Iraq?
Well, one was founded on extremely lose reasons and directly costs American lives.
The other is something offered by most every 1st World Nation and helps ensure a higher quality of life for citizens.
Both things cost money, but the Public Sector isn't about turning a profit. The Government is going to spend money, so I guess I'd rather they spend it on their citizens' health rather than a War. No, I don't think people will be all up in arms at all, unless it becomes profitable for the media to do so.
Public health care is shit in other countries too: steal from people who work and give it to people who don't. The government chooses who the winners and losers are. Healthcare is not a right in my opinion.
God forbid we let people fend for themselves and actually run a capitalist society - obviously American history has proven that capitalism breeds a weak nation. Oh wait, only since we started taking away everyone's rights and forcing socialism on our society have we dropped from being a super power. It's cool, Rome 2.0.
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2245
God forbid we let people fend for themselves and actually run a capitalist society
Where do you live, Alaska? I don't know about you, but I have to earn all of my own money and pay my own bills - similar to everyone else in the country. Some people take handouts, but they don't have most of the amenities that I have and also don't have the access to nearly as many societal luxuries that I have (which wealthier people have even more of).
Stop talking like everyone is walked around by the hand, where challenges are discouraged and paths are lighted and straight.
Besides, a purely Capitalist society would suck, I don't even want to think about a privatized Highway Department, or Fire and Police.
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2245
Joe: I was referring to where the country is headed - I'm being over exaggerated.
So because of the socialistic tendencies of the FAA, FTC, FCC, Fire/Police Departments, Public Schools, we're no longer relying on ourselves anymore? What other Socialistic programs have been forced on this country that you see leading us towards Rome 2.0?
justinr i'm sure hasn't even been to another country to see what healthcare is like
and to bluefalcon, the people not paying is exactly what happens now, you don't have coverage and you go the emergency room, they legally can't turn you away if you don't have insurance (which they'd like to) and it raises insurance rates for everyone, will you be able to force 40 million people to buy something and enforce it 100%? probably not, but they don't do that with the income tax system already
I personally couldn't be happier with the ruling: logic, pragmatism and rationalism prevail!
I agree as well. Let's call a spade a spade. Not only does this prove Obama a liar but this whole escapade will end up hurting the very poor Obama meant to protect (like most democratic movements) and has pretty much ensured a Romney victory (and subsequent repeal of Obamacare) in November. This is the best ruling that could have happened for the right, the fools on the left just don't see it yet. They are too busy hi-fiving each other and calling their opposition "Bitches".
So because of the socialistic tendencies of the FAA, FTC, FCC, Fire/Police Departments, Public Schools, we're no longer relying on ourselves anymore?
How about excessive taxation and corruption?
And I hate when people lump their local Fire/Police departments into the whole "government" programs. When people complain about government overreaching it isn't a local one. The Postal Service is surprisingly absent from your listing...hrmmm I wonder why?
Here's the deal, I work, I have good healthcare insurance, and I pay taxes. Those three statements probably characterize the majority of folks that come to this website. Judging by the responses of Jubedgy, Crazieman, and justinr (and a ton of other responses yet to come from the usual cast of frequent posters) people are getting fed up with the wealth transfer that's occuring right before our eyes. This healtcare debate is just a flashpoint in what is really an intensifying class warfare.
I see it everyday where I live. There are folks going on four and five generations now that have done nothing but live on various forms of public assistance. They live in low cost or free housing--and the housing is pretty nice. They're townhomes that even have a lawn service. It's like a senior living community. They pay for these houses either not at all or using money from public assistance. They send their kids to schools that they don't pay for (and a lot of these kids are not exactly model students). They consume an inordinate amount of police resources--again, resources they aren't paying for. It's amazing though, when I drive around these blocks, there's an awful lot of nice cars out as well as people walking around with iPhones. Where is that money coming from? Oh, and to add insult to injury, Comcast announced that they will cut their rates for people below a certain household earning threshold. Why, so they can sit home and watch TV in their air conditioned, government homes? Shouldn't they be looking for jobs? Shouldn't something be asked of them--maybe public service like the old CCC?
Government coddling isn't making our nation stronger. It's not raising people up out of poverty and giving them a helping hand when they're knocked off their feet. It's creating an entire class of people that are dependent on the government for their very lives. It's just encouraging laziness and a sense of entitlement. I could write pages and pages I'm so fed up. In the past, when it was a little more like every man for himself, you had to make better choices. If you made bad choices, you faced the possibility that you might not survive. The government is creating a moral hazard and stripping away the consequences of bad choices in life. The folks paying for these safety nets aren't the ones who are benefiting.
While this little rant isn't exactly related to the healthcare decision, I think it captures the sentiment of those who opposed it.
And Joe, I think most people, even the hardest of hardcore capitalists, recognize that there are certain functions of government that are necessary. Roads, police, fire, military, courts, primary education, a currency, basic safety regulations, etc. I think the issue is when the government starts extend its reach to determine what sort of living standard people ought to have, and that others should pay for it. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment, welfare, food stamps, Section 8 housing, Obamacare, etc.
Charkoth - I don't know that this will propel Romney to victory. His achilles heal, and it's a big one in this case, is Romneycare from his MA governor days. I mean, how hard can he rail against Obama without looking like a hipocrite?
BlueFalcon you could have summarized your entire statement by saying "Liberalization is the devolution of the human species". When you reward failure you ensure you get more of it.
And I think Romney has a much better case making the point of Obama's broken campaign promises and lies. States and Governments can tax people any way they see fit, we all agree with that.
I actually really agree with Roberts decision. This wasn't covered at all under the commerce clause which was my main opposition to it. Obama is already taxing behavior with his cigarette tax. Why not no health care? I don't agree with it, but I realize it is Constituional.
Romney enacted a law as governor that was aimed at 3% of his population. Obamacare is aimed at 40%. There are marked differences between the two and the people who fail to see those differences are stupid enough to vote for Obama anyways so the presence of any supposed hypocrisy is irrelevant.
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2245
How about excessive taxation and corruption?
And I hate when people lump their local Fire/Police departments into the whole "government" programs. When people complain about government overreaching it isn't a local one. The Postal Service is surprisingly absent from your listing...hrmmm I wonder why?
I don't mind throwing the Postal Service in there, it may operate in the red, but it's a Public Service, it shouldn't be making a profit. And also, justinr didn't specify local/federal/state/whatever, he just mentioned Socialism/socialist programs. So, those are examples of socialistic programs - I kept it as general as he did.
Not only does this prove Obama a liar but this whole escapade will end up hurting the very poor Obama meant to protect
How? There will be plenty of programs/subsidies available for those who won't have money to pay for their Health Insurance.
Really Joe, 4 out of the first 9 replies?
Well, I don't like to brag.. but thanks for noticing!
And your opinion is fair, however I just don't see it working for a Nation as diverse, geographically huge and as complicated as ours. Maybe I could see that working in a smaller country with a single religion (80-90% practice it), a single essential heritage - but not here. There's just too much diversity for a bare-bones Government to exist. But that's just my opinion.
However, that's getting more into generalities that affect Governments all over the World. Speaking about Healthcare specifically, I don't see how this is any sort of class warfare. I just don't see where this whole accusation is even coming from. Are people just upset that they have to pay for Health Insurance even if they're healthy? Do they not understand that is exactly how Health Insurance works? Whether you have from employment or what, it needs to be paid - you can't just have Health Insurance when you start to feel bad and then get rid of it at other times.
And your anecdote BlueFalcon, while painting a pretty picture really does nothing for me. There are plenty of wealthy citizens that take full advantage of quite a number of public services and attempt to do everything in their power to pay little to no taxes. However, my example - much like your story is most likely the exception than the rule. You will always find people taking advantage of a process or system, but that does not mean that the idea as a whole should be struck down.
This healthcare debate is just a flashpoint in what is really an intensifying class warfare.
Yes, and it will be led by people who use the actions of the very few to form generalities about the class as a whole - whether middle, low or high class.
Now not only do you get to pay for their junk food(so they have enough money to buy cigarettes). Now you get to pay for their unhealthy lifestyle as well. They should start to tax the obese people and put an additional $1 tax per cigarette pack so that they pay their fair share.
justinr i'm sure hasn't even been to another country to see what healthcare is like
Not true, but good job assuming.
and to bluefalcon, the people not paying is exactly what happens now, you don't have coverage and you go the emergency room, they legally can't turn you away if you don't have insurance (which they'd like to) and it raises insurance rates for everyone, will you be able to force 40 million people to buy something and enforce it 100%? probably not, but they don't do that with the income tax system already
This is part of the problem once again. Sure if someone has a serious problem (car wreck, whatever) they shouldn't be refused. But logic escapes the system when you have habitual offenders coming to the ER for something like Aspirin.
@ Joe
The main sentiment we have an issue with is the forced redistribution of wealth. When people claim "everyone will have to pay insurance" and then follow it with "people who can't afford it will get it for free" you just summarized why we're pissed. People who work hard, do what they have to do to get ahead, then are forced to pay for people who are a drain.
The argument arises when you talk about what you believe is or isn't a necessity in a society. Falcon summarized the list nicely so no need to reiterate.
The problem that I see facing our country is that the government is trying to make everyone "more equal". It isn't the government's job to intervene and make people equal. If you didn't buy insurance and you get sick, it's your own problem. You learn from your mistake and teach your kids don't do the same - or you pull yourself up and learn your lesson. Personal accountability is what matters.
People use the argument "we have to pay for them if they get sick" --- why? It's just another government imposed rule. Then that is used as justification for another rule. Slippery slope is the perfect definition of the phenomenon of constant government intervention / rules / etc / etc. Where is the line drawn? I personally would have drawn the line a long time ago rather than us slipping further towards Socialism.
People don't deserve to be equal. People deserve the OPPORTUNITY to be equal. If they fail to succeed, then they need to live with their consequences.
Registered: 2003-03-20 Location: Irvine, CA Posts: 3630
My health care went up from 80 to 113 a paycheck after Obama's bullshit. It's a hippy system where I have to pay extra for the people who are less fortunate. It's the same as when the Catholics made everyone pay donations so they could live in palaces and have rich lifestyles.
Now that it is officially called a tax, the entire law can be dumped. There was no way to strike down the entire law and start over so Roberts did the next best thing. By calling it a tax it only takes 51 Senate votes to remove the law. If it was not a tax it would require reconciliation (60 votes). Plus by ruling with the Socialists on the court he wrote the decision deciding states did not have to comply with the mandates
Smokin Joe: It's a valiant effort, but it's just not worth it. Most of the people you're arguing with are completely in loony-town when it comes to anything political or economic. RowdyRoddyPiper has a better chance of winning them over with insane rants about tyranny and fluoride than you do with all the facts, reason, and logic in the world.
Jubedgy's comment is on the money.
It's losing the battle, to win the war. By striking it down as a COMMERCE CLAUSE legislation, Roberts brilliantly put the line in the sane. Now, nothing as bad as the health care law will ever come from a Congress' invocation of the commerce clause.
As for calling it a tax... well, it's unfortunate that Roberts affirmed it, but Jubedgy is right: by labeling it a tax, you get crowds up in arms.... more so than if you tell people they'll be forced to eat broccoli.
So which is worse? Higher taxes or Broccoli?
The ends will justify the means. Republicans, tea partiers, moderates, libertarians, everyone else is now galvanized against the Dems. GG Obama.
Gotta love veiled insults directed at people "in loony-town" because you disagree. Suddenly when someone doesn't agree with your opinion, they can't "see the facts, reason, and logic". All of this is opinion, but lets go ahead and make it out to be based on "facts, reason and logic". This thread is definitely hilarious.
@justinr: It wasn't a veiled insult. I was openly mocking you.
I mean, let's just look at your post above:
"Public health care is shit in other countries too: steal from people who work and give it to people who don't. The government chooses who the winners and losers are. Healthcare is not a right in my opinion.
God forbid we let people fend for themselves and actually run a capitalist society - obviously American history has proven that capitalism breeds a weak nation. Oh wait, only since we started taking away everyone's rights and forcing socialism on our society have we dropped from being a super power. It's cool, Rome 2.0."
There's hardly a coherent thought here, much less an argument, much much less anything with evidence or the slightest bit of substance. It's all typical right-wing platitudes about how 'da gubbermint' is evil and socialism and the tyranny and blah blah blah.
You're not really trying to have a discussion at all. You're just taking concepts and ideas you don't really understand (like socialism or capitalism) and simplifying them into political slogans without content. Arguing with you is like arguing with a propaganda ad. It's just an elaborate waste of time.
Registered: 2006-06-10 Location: The Land of Chocolate Posts: 2245
The problem that I see facing our country is that the government is trying to make everyone "more equal". It isn't the government's job to intervene and make people equal. If you didn't buy insurance and you get sick, it's your own problem. You learn from your mistake and teach your kids don't do the same - or you pull yourself up and learn your lesson. Personal accountability is what matters.
How the hell is everyone more equal after the Healthcare Bill?
I'm fairly sure that those who need to pay via subsidies are not going to get the same quality of care as those who pay for a higher tier of service. I always assumed one of the major problems was the fact that those who couldn't pay whatsoever was draining the shit out of Hospitals because there was no way for the patients to ever pay the Hospitals in any sort of way.
Another main issue were people (regardless of Economic Class) were getting rejected because of pre-existing conditions. While I understand that Insurance companies need to make money, Government stepping in and trying to ensure that everyone has the right to purchase Health Insurance was a great move.
I'm far from an expert on the matter, but it really doesn't seem as complicated as a lot of people are trying to make this out to sound. Health Insurance is a great thing when everyone's paying their dues appropriately - so let's try to get as many people Insured and able to pay for some level of care. All this flim-flam on it running the country broke or causing class warfare is complete nonsense.
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