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RowdyRoddyPiper
Nut Job
May 8th, 2012 @ 6:52PM
Registered:
2003-06-20
Location:
Nashville TN
Posts: 1672
| this really makes me sad. a homeless guy already with nothing gets his life taken from him. at least hes in heaven now the other pukes will go to hell |
Trickshot
Peon
May 8th, 2012 @ 7:03PM
Registered:
2006-10-22
Location:
Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 353
| The worst part is he keeps saying "I`m sorry" to the people who kill him. I know the majority of cops are cool, but the small percentage that are assholes really screw it up for them. |
DarkShear
Marine
May 8th, 2012 @ 7:04PM
Registered:
2003-04-22
Location:
Seattle
Posts: 691
| Disgusting abuse of power. |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
May 8th, 2012 @ 7:09PM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2200
| Not to excuse the original cop who escalated the situation with his threats (with us knowing nothing about why the cop was approaching the guy) but the guy was obviously on some kind of drugs and was resisting the entire time, which is why it took 7 police officers 8 minutes to restrain him.
I don't know all of the facts here but I seriously doubt the guy died from wounds suffered at the hands of police. He more likely died from overdose or the strain caused by resisting the police officers for such a long time.
In their defense, what were they supposed to do? Let him go on his way? All they wanted to do was put his hands behind his back...which he resisted to the end. |
SourGrapes
Peon
May 8th, 2012 @ 7:37PM
Registered:
2006-06-01
Location:
Posts: 132
| You obviously don`t know all the facts. |
Nalcolm
Thinker
May 8th, 2012 @ 7:48PM
Registered:
2005-04-16
Location:
Posts: 617
| Charkoth, I sincerely hope the police never fuck with someone you care about to the point that you'd have to reconsider your unwavering stance on sucking their dicks in between bouts of apologizing for them.
I mean, does this look like a man who was beaten to death?
http://woofie4.pixiq.com/files/thomas2_6.jpg
Yeah probably just the drugs.
Not that drugs in his system have been mentioned anywhere. Not that being mentally ill might in and of itself be a reason a person acts strange. Oh well, they had five days to do blood tests before he died in his coma.
Assuming they didn't just use the giant pool of his blood left at the incident in the first place:
http://woofie4.pixiq.com/files/kelly_thomas_crime_scene.jpg
So we'll get to find out.
In their defense, what were they supposed to do? Let him go on his way?
Well, that's a good point. You wouldn't want a homeless man to be left to go on his way if the alternative is beating him to death. That would mean we live in a crazy world. |
Nalcolm
Thinker
May 8th, 2012 @ 7:51PM
Registered:
2005-04-16
Location:
Posts: 617
| "We ran out of options so I got the end of my Taser and I probably ... I just start smashing his face to hell"
Great training! And obviously he must have been quite practiced at it, judging from Thomas' face afterwards. |
Ykant
Special Ops
May 8th, 2012 @ 8:20PM
Registered:
2004-09-14
Location:
Chicago, USA
Posts: 173
| That's just... messed up beyond my understanding. |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
May 8th, 2012 @ 9:20PM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2200
| Yeah as I said I don't know all the facts, only watched the video and I didn't SEE excessive force (which doesn't mean it didn't happen). I know the dude should have just listened and put his hands behind his back and he's still be alive, but that doesn't excuse his face ending up like that, that is bullshit.
I heard one of the cops say at some point the guy has to be on something or something like that, and considering it took so many men just to handcuff him I'm still inclined to believe it. People are crazy on drugs. I watched a similar scenario play out with a guy on drugs at a football game in high school and it took the police forces of several surrounding townships to finally take him down as tazers just didn't work on him. Granted, this guy was violent and splattered one cops nose over the side of his face. |
nate_orenstam
Special Ops
May 8th, 2012 @ 9:29PM
Registered:
2003-04-05
Location:
Posts: 1406
| i was so happy when i saw the video... because i'd already heard about this incident of police brutality so it wasn't yet another new one for me
nowhere in the video does it look like thomas is in any danger of escaping or hurting a cop. |
killer6600
Marine
May 8th, 2012 @ 9:41PM
Registered:
2007-06-16
Location:
canada
Posts: 1156
| wow
it's shocking to see you defend this, and you can say all you want about not knowing facts and then just merrily yammering on about how when a guy resists arrest and doesn't get restrained with the first blow to the head he must be on drugs "look how many cops it took to kill him!!! he must have been on some crazy drugs!"
i guess thats the disconnect, i watch the video see someone that didn't know how to follow the officers orders and then started getting attacked with a nightstick by 2 cops which escallated into a multi cop murder of this person and you see something completely logical and by the book and sad for the cops that this person committed suicide in their custody
|
Gamelore
Marine
May 8th, 2012 @ 10:00PM
Registered:
2003-04-04
Location:
San Jose, CA
Posts: 522
| I'd be willing to bet he was on drugs too. Until one of my own friends went homeless. It's rather crazy to get homeless in the first place, but now I've seen it first-hand -- You get a big mental block preventing your body from performing an action (i.e., getting a job or putting hands behind your back).
Interesting that inability persists when confronted by police, even when under pain, but I can believe it. He simply wasn't able to put his hands behind his back despite his understanding of the command.
That said, I don't blame the police for some other guy's inability. It's his inability that got him killed in the end. |
BiVRiP
General
May 8th, 2012 @ 10:01PM
Registered:
2003-05-11
Location:
Canada
Posts: 1879
| Seeing as there is no evidence of any drugs at play, another rather simple explanation is that guy was scared shitless, his system flooded with adrenaline and he was acting purely on instinct.
I mean seriously, if you have half a dozen cops on you intent on beating you, tazing you and what not is it really that unreasonable to think one would be hesitant to willingly put yourself in a position where you're on your belly with your arms behind your back? The officer's "request" to comply be damned.
You're either going to fight, run, or curl up into a little ball. Now throw in that he's mentally ill and all logical responses to what he *should* have done go out the window.
What should the officers have done? Simple, not have antagonized the poor guy and used violence to achieve their desired response. With no discernible evidence that the cops were ever in danger, the onus is on them 100%. They unnecessarily escalated a situation to a point that should never have been reached in the first place.
Shame on them. I hope they get the book thrown at them. |
killer6600
Marine
May 9th, 2012 @ 12:30AM
Registered:
2007-06-16
Location:
canada
Posts: 1156
| so people unable to comply with police orders are fair game to be killed? |
Smokin Joe
Marine
May 9th, 2012 @ 10:35AM
Registered:
2006-06-10
Location:
The Land of Chocolate
Posts: 2240
| That is one of the saddest things I've ever watched.
From the initial moment that cop had nothing on his mind but to bully and intimidate Kelly into doing what he wanted. Cops are trained for this shit, and he displayed nothing but brutality.
Anyone defending the cops is essentially not a human being, or has deluded themselves into thinking that this is how a Police Officer should act.
Absolutely disgusting.
Charkoth, I'm appalled you decided to make such statements in defense of the Cop. All we know is what we see, and what we see is nothing but contempt for human life. I hope Officer Ramon is found guilty of murder and abuse of power. |
Iceman
Peon
May 9th, 2012 @ 4:20PM
Registered:
2012-02-21
Location:
Indiana
Posts: 40
| I sure hope the filthy pigs get what they deserve in the end. |
cobsteele02
Marine
May 10th, 2012 @ 3:56PM
Registered:
2004-10-08
Location:
O'Fallon Missouri USA
Posts: 709
| I normally stick up for the majority of cops. But this was unacceptable. These guys are villains and have no right in being in any position of power. |
Trickshot
Peon
May 10th, 2012 @ 8:52PM
Registered:
2006-10-22
Location:
Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 353
| They say 1 in 100 people are sociopaths. How many hundreds of people do you come in contact with every year? |
Trickshot
Peon
May 10th, 2012 @ 8:54PM
Registered:
2006-10-22
Location:
Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 353
| I looked at the evidence photos and I can read anything on the internet without being too disturbed, this was too disturbing. |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
May 10th, 2012 @ 9:22PM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2200
| Good to know I'm "essentially not a human being" because I look at something from a logical instead of an emotional point of view.
Cops attempt to make an arrest. Civilian resists arrest. Cops do everything in their power to arrest the man.
This plays out time and time again all over the country yet in 99% of the cases the civilian allows himself to be cuffed once he is taken down.
As I said the first cop was definitely in the wrong, but the guys who came in later were just trying to help make the arrest. You're always going to have issues with mental people and police as it is something that can't be identified on sight and police still have a job to do.
Your mob vigilante justice views are exactly why we have our court system.
|
BlueFalcon
Word To Your Mom
May 10th, 2012 @ 10:18PM
Registered:
2003-04-27
Location:
Filth-a-delphia
Posts: 1288
| If I had to bet, my guess is that the police felt Thomas was under the influence of something like PCP or bath salts. Maybe 5 years and 103 vagrants ago, Officer Ramos might have been more inclined toward a slower escalation of force. Perhaps he has had incidents in the past go south on him because he showed too much restraint. I think with hindsight things would have been handled differently, but no one gets a mulligan. All the jury can go by is the defendants' training and prior experiences, and I haven't heard much about that.
EDIT: I'm on my Android and it sucks typing. Without taking sides, all I'm saying is that this will boil down to objective reasonableness of force. I think Graham v. Connor will be brought up in this case.
EDITED: 2012-05-10 22:38:36 |
Smokin Joe
Marine
May 11th, 2012 @ 6:51AM
Registered:
2006-06-10
Location:
The Land of Chocolate
Posts: 2240
| So you have no problem with the cop starting off that aggressively, Charkoth? Kelly hasn't even had a chance to disobey the orders and he's already being intimidated via the Officer's position of power.
Logically speaking, you see nothing wrong with that? Is that really how you would want an officer to begin that sort of procedure?
Cops attempt to make an arrest. Civilian resists arrest. Cops do everything in their power to arrest the man.
And kill him. Sounds reasonable to me!
|
killer6600
Marine
May 11th, 2012 @ 7:49AM
Registered:
2007-06-16
Location:
canada
Posts: 1156
| no joe, not and kill him, thats part of the cops standard procedure to subdue someone, multiple knees to the face leaving someone in a coma in a pool of their own blood = everything in their power to arrest someone
lets not train cops to not be out of shape bullies repeatedly tasering and beating someone in an 8-1 arresting (calling it a standard arrest instead of assault, don't want feelings getting in my way)
the only way to arrest 1% of the population is to beat them into a coma they never wake up from |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
May 11th, 2012 @ 11:31AM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2200
| So you have no problem with the cop starting off that aggressively, Charkoth? Kelly hasn't even had a chance to disobey the orders and he's already being intimidated via the Officer's position of power.
Logically speaking, you see nothing wrong with that? Is that really how you would want an officer to begin that sort of procedure?
What part of these quotes did you not understand Joe?
Not to excuse the original cop who escalated the situation with his threats
As I said the first cop was definitely in the wrong
And Killer do you have a better way to approach the situation? Maybe the cops should have called the guys mother and had her come coax him into accepting handcuffs? All I'm saying is he resisted arrest until the end. If those guys had had handcuffs on him and he was lying facedown on the ground and they were kicking or beating him, then I'd say execute the fuckers but that isn't what happened. Again, I'm in no way defending the first cop, but the guys who came in later (I assume) had no idea what was going on but were trying to help him make what as far as they know was a perfectly justified arrest against someone who was resisting. None of us know all the facts at this point regardless. We don't know why the cop was even approaching the guy in the first place and we don't know what happened from the end of the video until he died. Everything I saw in the video with the exception of the first cop's handling of the situation in the beginning was reasonable. Once again, I'm only speaking about what we can SEE in the video, not things that were not clear or happened before and after.
I seriously wonder if many of you have ever come up with a logical thought before. |
Smokin Joe
Marine
May 11th, 2012 @ 12:58PM
Registered:
2006-06-10
Location:
The Land of Chocolate
Posts: 2240
| Oh damnit, I completely missed your initial statement in your first comment. Reeeeaaaaally wished I joined the conversation earlier and paid closer attention. I guess maybe I was just in absolute shock that you didn't necessarily see something wrong there and didn't reread what you said closer enough.
Well, I kinda have to take back a lot (essentially all) of what I said because it was based on the absolute wrong way that the initial officer handled things.
I'm just going to see myself out.
I seriously wonder if many of you have ever come up with a logical thought before.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess I at least owe you a drink. And I guess you are human after all, and so am I apparently given my mistake. |
killer6600
Marine
May 11th, 2012 @ 4:27PM
Registered:
2007-06-16
Location:
canada
Posts: 1156
| i guess thats the differnce, i see in the video a cop saying i'm going to fuck you up, and then another cop at the end saying
"We ran out of options so I got the end of my Taser and I probably ... I just start smashing his face to hell," Cicinelli said, according to the transcript provided by prosecutors. "He was on something. Cause the three of us couldn't even control him."
i guess i assume police are trained in restraining people, and i guess i am illogical in my thought that if a guy is pinned down but still fighting being restrained, if the arm is swinging around i'd attack the arm and disable it by breaking it, not using the end of a taser to 'smash his face to hell' but i guess thats not logical we'll just kill people because he might be on something.
i guess it's illogical to watch 8 minutes of video, read an article that says the actual video is 33 minutes long, see pictures of a bloated destroyed and broken face of a man in a coma and say "gee, i think these cops were in the wrong" instead of saying "i didn't see anything on that video, it must have been someone else that did that to him!" |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
May 11th, 2012 @ 10:53PM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2200
| I've done must the same here before in past threads Joe, can't always catch every line from every conversation.
Killer if their intention was to kill the guy they would have done it and easily so it is quite obvious we can reasonably assume they didn't want him dead.
Second, if you watch the video you see they tried just about everything I know in the book to get both guys arms behind the back. After the tazer failed to work, which I find hard to believe even so, I don't know what options are left to a cop? Try to knock the guy unconscious?
Once again NONE of us know all of the facts here and the video is only one piece of the evidence. . My defense of the cops will stop once I see them crossing the line.
The only reason I get involved in this shit is because I see countless videos on the internet that appear to show horrible things and everyone always gets this "execute them all" mob mentality based on the video alone. I never take a definite stance on something until I know all the facts.
I still remember that stupid video of the cops pepper spraying those occupy students.....who didn't show they were surrounding the cops and obstructing justice and who were given more warning than they deserved. The original video released by the students had people screaming police brutality, yet the facts were far difference than the video presented after another more accurate portrayal of the situation was released later..
Also for the record in case anyone here has forgotten, I have more reason to hate cops than just about anyone here. I have been tried and convicted in court, not once, but twice on two separate occasions via absolute perjury by police officer scum with no other evidence to convict me. The fact I can still give cops a benefit of the doubt shows that I can still be logical, and recognize that my personal experience is far more likely the exception than the rule. |
killer6600
Marine
May 12th, 2012 @ 1:00AM
Registered:
2007-06-16
Location:
canada
Posts: 1156
| " twice on two separate occasions via absolute perjury by police officer scum with no other evidence to convict me. The fact I can still give cops a benefit of the doubt shows that I can still be logical"
NO that is NOT logical
your personal experience with cops is that they are dirty liars with no morals (under oath to god lied) and inspite of that evidence you still give them the benefit of the doubt.....cop says i'm going to fuck you up, guy gets fucked up, paramedic testifies in court that the cops stood around doing nothing after they had him cuffed and he was layig in a pool of blood.
your defence of cops will stop when they cross the line, you have EVIDENCE OF YOUR PERSONAL CONVICTIONS that they will cross the line
do i think they intended to kill him? no, but their actions caused his death and they must go to court for this and be tried
you reference this video as not being the whole story, a year ago when there was a mobile phone video where you couldn't see anything just the guys screams was when that argument works, because you coudln't see anything and it was 30 seconds of the guy screaming, here you see the cop walk up say i'm going to fuck you up, and then fuck the guy up.
now when you include your previous personal interaction with police your logic fails more. your hand has been burnt by the stove twice yet you feel that stove won't burn anyone
i don't understand what you think happened to this guy, his arms and legs were kicking so they beat him into a coma and its ok cause you can't see that they did what? run him over with a car on purpose instead of beat him "to hell" with the taser?
so many cops become bullies and treat people like shit INCLUDING YOU and because the video is out of frame when the guy is held down by 7 cops while one admittedly beats him in the face over and over with his weapon you....what? i dunno think it was the paramedics that beat him in the ambulance? |
JanMan
Peon
May 12th, 2012 @ 3:14AM
Registered:
2005-02-20
Location:
Edmonton
Posts: 57
| Seven cops don`t have enough combined strength to pull a skinny homeless dude`s arm behind his back without beating him to death first? At least a couple of those cops are cold blooded murderers. The rest should be fired for incompetence and punished in a civil trial. |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
May 12th, 2012 @ 11:21PM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2200
| Killer, sometimes there is going to be a grey area with an action that is neither right nor wrong...the problem is there was no right action available.
Notice also I didn't defend the cop that crossed the line, but the line at some point for many of those cops was in a grey area. As I said in 99% of the cases the cops get the guys arms behind his back with no problem. This guy for whatever reason refused to put his arms behind his back. If you can accept that then you can see how I think nothing I saw was unreasonable from the rest of the cops. |
BiVRiP
General
May 13th, 2012 @ 9:14AM
Registered:
2003-05-11
Location:
Canada
Posts: 1879
| so many cops become bullies...
While I can understand how after several years the profession can make one jaded and cynical, I think it's the other way around. The job attracts bullies who see it as a means to legitimately throw their weight around under the colour of authority. All those dumb jocks who thought they were the shit in high school but then realize they don't have the skills to do become anything of worth in the real world? They become cops.
The bar to becoming a police officer needs to be much higher. Pay them more if necessary but have them undergo a psych test. If anyone is predisposed towards aggressive tendencies or has a history of violence - sorry that's an automatic fail. |
