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nexu
Peon
March 9th, 2009 @ 2:06AM
Registered:
2003-06-13
Location:
Los Angeles
Posts: 135
| Wow, that really shows you the core appeal of religion. |
meorah
Marine
March 9th, 2009 @ 5:31AM
Registered:
2003-04-10
Location:
Posts: 494
| No missionaries go to europe, and europeans are harder to indoctrinate than africans. |
craig
Guitar God
March 9th, 2009 @ 5:39AM
Registered:
2005-01-06
Location:
Tampa, FL
Posts: 334
| Very sad. I now that my life was empty and meaningless until I was touched by His noodly appendage.
|
cobsteele02
Marine
March 9th, 2009 @ 6:16AM
Registered:
2004-10-08
Location:
O'Fallon Missouri USA
Posts: 709
| Its sad money is becoming the new God in the West world. There is not enough hardships to bring people to God. Even my church (Catholic) is guided by money instead of Christ. |
Smokin Joe
Marine
March 9th, 2009 @ 8:02AM
Registered:
2006-06-10
Location:
The Land of Chocolate
Posts: 2240
| Sorry to be cynical, but aren`t the reasons behind those numbers completely different?
In Africa, you have to agree to the Christian Mission`s ways in order to get any education n food.
However in Europe, they start using condoms and the unbendable church will readily kick you out.
id be more impressed if the church were landing people from more educated, more wealthy areas and not just scraping people up with the promise of food and shelter.
|
Winner
?
March 9th, 2009 @ 12:59PM
Registered:
2004-02-24
Location:
austin
Posts: 110
| we need to go the way of europe or we`ll be back in the dark ages. |
mad_dog1
Marine
March 9th, 2009 @ 2:34PM
Registered:
2003-03-26
Location:
Germany - Destroying legends one post at a time
Posts: 583
| Sunday at Church, a pastor from Africa said Africa is gaining 23,000 Christians a day while Europe is losing 6,000/day.
ask yourself. who is more educated and cultural advanced. then draw a conclusion.
|
Apricoth
Kali Compton Girl
March 9th, 2009 @ 2:58PM
Registered:
2003-06-14
Location:
MN
Posts: 1792
| That's not very nice things to say. I am educated, have a great living, income is awesome. I have a beautiful little girl. Are you saying, mad and others who asked the same question, that I am not educated/well established financially? Better guard your words wisely. |
Disastrous Fate
General
March 9th, 2009 @ 3:16PM
Registered:
2004-02-09
Location:
Posts: 1012
| "That`s not very nice things to say. I am educated, have a great living, income is awesome. I have a beautiful little girl. Are you saying, mad and others who asked the same question, that I am not educated/well established financially? Better guard your words wisely."
Not that I am completely agreeing with the comments of others, but to say that religious rates are lower amongst the well educated..well that`s just true. That doesn`t mean that there aren`t LOTS of educated religious people. It just means that well educated people are less likely to be religious.
I`m not sure about income vs. religion, though. I almost doubt there`s a correlation. |
Winner
?
March 9th, 2009 @ 3:18PM
Registered:
2004-02-24
Location:
austin
Posts: 110
| you can`t use one case to draw a conclusion, but a huge number in africa vs a huge number in europe is more compelling than your single case or your friends and whatnot. education indeed. jk, im not taking shots. |
GroverDill
Special Ops
March 9th, 2009 @ 3:57PM
Registered:
2003-04-09
Location:
your mom's house
Posts: 802
| That's not very nice things to say. I am educated, have a great living, income is awesome.
Oh, come on. Is this really the first time you've heard somebody say something like that about religion? The way this debate works is some atheist will call all religious people mentally feeble and the religious types will counter by calling all atheists immoral sodomites. There's no sense in getting unhinged about it - you don't have to take it personally if you don't want to. |
what316
Shithead
March 9th, 2009 @ 4:28PM
Registered:
2003-03-26
Location:
TX
Posts: 964
| I just assumed there were more people in Africa. |
Miamihrrcne
Marine
March 9th, 2009 @ 4:55PM
Registered:
2004-03-12
Location:
Miami
Posts: 801
| apricoth: why do you have religion? out of fear of the unknown, because that is the way you were raised, or what? |
RowdyRoddyPiper
Nut Job
March 9th, 2009 @ 4:57PM
Registered:
2003-06-20
Location:
Nashville TN
Posts: 1672
| religion has been taken over by crooks and liars. When jesus walked the earth mostly what he did was go to the relgious establishments and completely put their leaders in their places. its worse today and god warns in revelation to get out of it. because hes going to destroy all false religion, all these fake christians who jump and dance in church being led by freemason pastors who are under femas clergy response team....these christians who say they worship god yet cheer on bush or whoever the president is as they slaughter 1.3 million iraqis....your gonna be drug to camps and gassed and slaughtered. only one relgion has it right so far and thats jehovahs witnesss`s |
nate_orenstam
Special Ops
March 9th, 2009 @ 5:25PM
Registered:
2003-04-05
Location:
Posts: 1406
| Are you saying, mad and others who asked the same question, that I am not educated/well established financially?
A mysterious omnipotent being who exists outside the realm of the physical or anthropological sciences is extremely unlikely to be anything but fodder for faerie tales and grist for scare stories, is I think what they're getting at. |
granther
Peon
March 9th, 2009 @ 5:40PM
Registered:
2003-04-02
Location:
Posts: 129
| The reason religious people are losing faith is that God hasn`t been doing his job very well. Why haven`t these damn california sodomites been ignited into balls of heavenly wrath yet? Why haven`t I gotten my raise after all this tithing I`ve done? Unless God steps up with a world-class miracle sometime soon, I`m dropping out too. |
mad_dog1
Marine
March 9th, 2009 @ 5:57PM
Registered:
2003-03-26
Location:
Germany - Destroying legends one post at a time
Posts: 583
| @apricoth:
winner pretty much answered your question.
in you personal case i suspect that you have been exposed to religion from childhood on.
thats the reason why the financially established/educated follow it most of the time. |
Smokin Joe
Marine
March 9th, 2009 @ 8:07PM
Registered:
2006-06-10
Location:
The Land of Chocolate
Posts: 2240
| Yeah I personally never meant to say religious folk are mental midgets. I guess I should have meant to use further developed areas as my example.
There`s no doubt there are highly intelligent people who are religious, I mean many astrophysicists are very spiritual. However, when you look into numbers and relative areas that large, more general ideas are taken into account.
I got no problem with religion and see it as beneficial in underdeveloped areas to kind of give people something good to be a part of without anything tangible. However the principles of organized religion kinda fall apart as a region becomes more developed.
|
hjparcins
General
March 9th, 2009 @ 8:42PM
Registered:
2008-10-27
Location:
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Posts: 980
| It`s pretty wild how aggressive atheists get when religion is mentioned. I`m really shocked how heated up they get. Religious freedom is one of, if not THE founding principle of the United States.
Sorry to break it to you, but believing in nothing is not a belief. Stop acting like it is. If you don`t think anything greater than yourself exists, then just leave it at that - no need to attack people that do. Every time I see some punk on the internet bashing religion I imagine some douchebag emo kid sitting in the dark, illuminated by the glow of his computer screen. Half his face is covered with black bangs and he rubs his emo-cut scars as he rebels against what his parents taught him because its trendy.
Now don`t get me wrong - I`m not very religious. I`d probably consider myself agnostic. But I respect the choice of those who are religious, so long as they aren`t the holier-than-thou type.
One thing is for sure - the trend here is disturbing when you consider the kind of garbage they show on MTV and E! and VH1, the amount of sex even PREteens are having, etc. in light of our quickly declining practice of religion. I can`t watch MTV for more than 5 minutes without seeing a couple of gay dudes grinding on each other, a transexual tricking a straight guy into making out with him, a gratuitous instance of infidelity or straight up sluts banging everything in sight. Great stuff to teach our kids - I know for damn sure I`m blocking that channel when I have one. |
AfterBurn
Kali Compton
March 9th, 2009 @ 10:48PM
Registered:
2003-03-25
Location:
Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 375
| Religion is silly.
That is you doing all that stuff for yourself, take credit.
FSM |
killer6600
Marine
March 9th, 2009 @ 10:49PM
Registered:
2007-06-16
Location:
canada
Posts: 1156
| the decline of religion would be a great thing if it wasn`t so closely tied to the decline of morality, and yes, those are 2 completely separate things. |
Slev
Marine
March 9th, 2009 @ 11:46PM
Registered:
2003-03-26
Location:
Seattle
Posts: 471
| I grew up in with religion in a very conservative christian home. While I still believe in God, I'm completely turned off by today's Christian church. It's no longer their focus to help their fellow man, it's more about politics and making sure people are not allowed to do wrong things by law. I'm pretty sure if Jesus was here today that he would say the majority of today's churches are not what he had hoped for. A large majority (but not all) of today's christians have their priorities wrong. |
Apricoth
Kali Compton Girl
March 10th, 2009 @ 4:43AM
Registered:
2003-06-14
Location:
MN
Posts: 1792
| My parents were not religous, although when I visited my grandmother we did go to a Methodist church. I did not visit her that often. I have studied other religons, I have an open mind and find that Christianity (I am non-denominational by the way) is the answer for me and all of mankind. So no, I am not brain washed. |
meorah
Marine
March 10th, 2009 @ 10:21AM
Registered:
2003-04-10
Location:
Posts: 494
| God needs a govt bailout, a new marketing department, and he needs to give up on the the whole "my hide-and-seek game lets you develop your faith" crap.
Omnipotent my ass. |
Winner
?
March 10th, 2009 @ 11:47AM
Registered:
2004-02-24
Location:
austin
Posts: 110
| hjparcins, that`s called a failure of parenting. you`re very bitter about some person bashing religion, but it goes both ways. im not defending anyone, im just saying it happens on both sides. you will have some christian saying youre going to hell for believing in the good word of jesus and youll have some emo guy calling religion complete crap. the truth is, christians are supposed to think youre going to hell and feel bad for you if you dont believe in jesus. now that`s pretty shitty if you ask me. |
nate_orenstam
Special Ops
March 10th, 2009 @ 3:50PM
Registered:
2003-04-05
Location:
Posts: 1406
| One thing is for sure - the trend here is disturbing when you consider the kind of garbage they show on MTV and E! and VH1, the amount of sex even PREteens are having, etc. in light of our quickly declining practice of religion.
http://xkcd.com/552/
I can`t watch MTV for more than 5 minutes without seeing a couple of gay dudes grinding on each other, a transexual tricking a straight guy into making out with him, a gratuitous instance of infidelity or straight up sluts banging everything in sight. Great stuff to teach our kids - I know for damn sure I`m blocking that channel when I have one.
Why are you watching garbage? Turn it off. Go outside and do something wholesome and character-building. |
hjparcins
General
March 10th, 2009 @ 9:07PM
Registered:
2008-10-27
Location:
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Posts: 980
| Obviously, given my comments, I don`t watch that crap. If you channel surf, though, its pretty much unavoidable that you see something raunchy considering that kind of stuff accounts for 90% of the programming schedule.
My point is, it is there, and kids nowadays watch that shit all the time. While I agree that parents should monitor their kids (and this is definitely the main problem) the fact is that today we have situations in which both parents are working during the day while the kids have to fend for themselves after school, at least for a time. You can turn on MTV at 3 or 4:00 and see all manner of debauchery.
You can blame it on parenting all you want, but kids go to school and are exposed to other kids who themselves are likely raised by morons. Grade school social hierarchies generally don`t reward morality and intelligence, at least not while I was there.
And yeah, go ahead and link your correlation/causation comic, but unless you can offer some insight as to what IS causing the dearth of morality in Western society, your contribution is lacking. Your comic is just as speculative and presumptuous as any other comment.
And Winner, I agree with your last statement - it is pretty shitty when Christians act like that. But jumping the gun and attacking them first before they reveal themselves as zealots rather than honest, faithful people makes you just as bad.
|
GroverDill
Special Ops
March 11th, 2009 @ 1:11AM
Registered:
2003-04-09
Location:
your mom's house
Posts: 802
| You can blame it on parenting all you want, but kids go to school and are exposed to other kids who themselves are likely raised by morons. Grade school social hierarchies generally don`t reward morality and intelligence, at least not while I was there.
There will always be far more morons than non-morons, and frankly I don't think religious upbringing does a whole lot to change the balance. You mention that it seemed to be that way when you went to school too: presumably you believe that you turned out okay, so I'm not sure why you think your kids would make it through any worse than you did.
And yeah, go ahead and link your correlation/causation comic, but unless you can offer some insight as to what IS causing the dearth of morality in Western society, your contribution is lacking. Your comic is just as speculative and presumptuous as any other comment.
Not to put words in Nate's mouth, but if his goal was to demonstrate that your argument was flawed, there isn't any more support that he really needs to offer. Presumably the "dearth of morality in Western society" also correlates with a steady increase in the price of bread over the last few generations. As it now stands, my bread argument is at least as sensible as your decline of religion argument. You can either let that stand or provide some evidence to the contrary: either way, I think Nate's work is pretty much done here.
Frankly, I'd argue that your "dearth of morality in Western society" assertion is basically bogus. Every generation has thought that the next was going to hell in a handbasket (at some point, I'm sure that someone that that the popularization of the waltz was going to send their kids straight to hell). The last few generations have brought us voting rights for women, civil rights for african americans (and soon, marriage rights for gays!), the technical revolution and relatively widespread prosperity (chances are excellent that your kids won't be working in a cannery to help put food on the table). I happen to think that this will be a pretty awesome time to be a kid, despite having to endure the burden of a few lesbian dating shows on MTV. |
hjparcins
General
March 11th, 2009 @ 5:35AM
Registered:
2008-10-27
Location:
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Posts: 980
| "Presumably the `dearth of morality in Western society` also correlates with a steady increase in the price of bread over the last few generations. As it now stands, my bread argument is at least as sensible as your decline of religion argument. You can either let that stand or provide some evidence to the contrary: either way, I think Nate`s work is pretty much done here."
Well, this will probably be the last thing I`ll say on the subject, but consider this: Classically, there are 2 institutions that morality is based in - law and religion. You can argue which came first, the chicken or the egg, but historically they were often not mutually exclusive.
Considering we are only regulating society more with law, that`s obviously not the cause. That leaves religion, something that is documented as declining.
Now, unless the price of bread has some historical significance in the development and refining of popular morality, I`d love to learn about another more "sensible" theory from you two. |
Smokin Joe
Marine
March 11th, 2009 @ 8:14AM
Registered:
2006-06-10
Location:
The Land of Chocolate
Posts: 2240
| despite having to endure the burden of a few lesbian dating shows on MTV.
whoa, whoa, whoa there!
Lesbians are awesome, it`s the Gays that bother everyone!
And besides, what kid doesn`t get their promiscuity from the Internets?
|
GroverDill
Special Ops
March 11th, 2009 @ 3:28PM
Registered:
2003-04-09
Location:
your mom's house
Posts: 802
| whoa, whoa, whoa there!
Lesbians are awesome, it`s the Gays that bother everyone!
And besides, what kid doesn`t get their promiscuity from the Internets?
It's so true. When I was a kid, we used to have to settle for trying to discern a hooter between the wavy lines of the scrambled Spice channel. Tomorrow's kids will have access to hi definition depravities I probably can't even begin to imagine.
It'd be rad if someone came up with something that scrambled adult content on the internet, sort of like Net Nanny or something except that instead of completely blocking adult sites, it uses the scrambled Spice effect to obscure everything in irritating ways. I would totally pay money for something like that just to mess with my kids. |
nate_orenstam
Special Ops
March 11th, 2009 @ 5:16PM
Registered:
2003-04-05
Location:
Posts: 1406
| My point is, it is there, and kids nowadays watch that shit all the time. While I agree that parents should monitor their kids (and this is definitely the main problem) the fact is that today we have situations in which both parents are working during the day while the kids have to fend for themselves after school, at least for a time. You can turn on MTV at 3 or 4:00 and see all manner of debauchery.
I have no idea if that's true. I haven't watched MTV for years.
If you're just channel surfing, you probably don't really know if it's true either. You'll remember the more provocative elements you see and forget the stuff that's less interesting to you naturally. That's no kind of sample size to base an observation like this on.
However, I do know that older people have been making this argument about the revolting and overly familiar habits and mannerisms of younger people roughly since the beginning of time. Andy Rooney has been saying this exact thing for over a century.
If there's a specific social trend other than something like garbage on out-of-control youth-oriented cable channels you'd like to discuss I'm game--maybe the teen pregnancy rate, for example? |
hjparcins
General
March 11th, 2009 @ 6:43PM
Registered:
2008-10-27
Location:
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Posts: 980
| Teen pregnancy rate declining? When will people learn that 90% of statistics are bullshit?
It`s even worse when you get into statistics on gays. The Kinsey Institute (huge joke) will claim 10% of people are gay, while most other studies might say around 2% is more realistic.
At any rate, the popular thing to say is that "aw shucks, old people always complain about how nasty the youngins are," but seriously - the difference is between the manner of dance and short haircuts on women from the 1920s and mainstream celebrities having sex on tape and rap songs talking about doing drugs, shooting cops and my all-time favorite example of raunchy disgusting garbage, the "song" My Neck, My Back (Lick It).
That shit reached number 4 in the UK. Unbelievable.
|
Winner
?
March 11th, 2009 @ 7:59PM
Registered:
2004-02-24
Location:
austin
Posts: 110
| why are your statistics any better than anyone`s elses? oh, is that an example of stats being bullshit?
everything is relative, buddy. years ago showing skin was a no no. now its normal. so things change. you can`t compare what was taboo in the 20s to the 2000s, that`s just silly.
you are in such denial. get over yourself and join everyone else in moving forward, not backwards. |
hjparcins
General
March 11th, 2009 @ 9:20PM
Registered:
2008-10-27
Location:
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Posts: 980
| You just proved the two points I was making. Reading comprehension?
Point 1: Statistics are bullshit.
Point 2: You can`t compare what was going on in the 20s to what is going on now. What is going on now is unique.
Also "denial" is surely the wrong word for what you were trying to say. I`m thoroughly aware of our global direction right now. I`m not denying it, I`m just not a fan of it.
We moved "forward" in the 60`s into free love, wanton drug abuse and being generally lazy and useless, and look how that worked out. We had to take a few steps back after the harsh reality hit us. Forward is not always the answer... sometimes its good to hold your ground and evaluate what is ahead before proceeding.
But I`m sure we`ll all figure that out one day when we stop moving incessantly forward for the sake of it like a horse with blinders on, only to find out we`re someplace we don`t want to be.
|
GroverDill
Special Ops
March 11th, 2009 @ 10:56PM
Registered:
2003-04-09
Location:
your mom's house
Posts: 802
| Teen pregnancy rate declining? When will people learn that 90% of statistics are bullshit?
I don't get the point of your posting that article, hjparcins. The data in your article says that teen pregnancy was in steady decline every year from 1991 to an ALL TIME LOW of 133,138 births in 2005. It has now started to go back up somewhat, but unless your argument is that morality has only started significantly declining over, like, the last 3 years, your argument that "a dearth of morality" is somehow hurting society still doesn't fit the model presented by your contradictory data.
Honestly, this is not an argument that I'm passionate about either way. I'm not really trying to persuade you that you are wrong, and I'd be willing to concede that everything is going to hell if you could present some credible evidence that it actually was. So far, your evidence that the world is in decline seems to be that you hate MTV and that teen pregnancies were at an all-time low 4 years ago. To say that that evidence seems less-than-compelling is sort of an understatement. |
Smokin Joe
Marine
March 12th, 2009 @ 7:35AM
Registered:
2006-06-10
Location:
The Land of Chocolate
Posts: 2240
| It`d be rad if someone came up with something that scrambled adult content on the internet, sort of like Net Nanny or something except that instead of completely blocking adult sites, it uses the scrambled Spice effect to obscure everything in irritating ways. I would totally pay money for something like that just to mess with my kids.
I`d get it for my future kids. Plus I`d teach `em tricks, like if you change the channel back, you get roughly 7 seconds of 50% cleared picture before it goes back to complete scrambling... Oh to be young again!
We moved "forward" in the 60`s into free love, wanton drug abuse and being generally lazy and useless, and look how that worked out. We had to take a few steps back after the harsh reality hit us. Forward is not always the answer... sometimes its good to hold your ground and evaluate what is ahead before proceeding.
Well... you could argue that losing two great Kennedy`s and MLK disillusioned enough people to not vote against Nixon and the beginnings of the Static Status Quo.
However, are you saying that until the 60`s there was no such thing as Free Love or Wanton Drug abuse? Or are you saying that only in this specific Western Society in the 20th century? Because then you`d STILL have to bring the 20s into discussion.
Just because you don`t enjoy certain aspects of today`s society you have to realize there are waaaaaay more wonderful things going on that more than balance out the negative. I just feel too many people nowadays have access to too many informational sources. Someone finds something that pisses them off and then they find it necessary to prove to others they they also should be pissed off.
Relax, take a deep breath - people still need to have some sort of Faith that Humanity, for the most party, can discern between truth and idiocy. And I also find it funny that those who consider themselves more Spiritual or Religious than most have the least faith in today`s society.
|
nate_orenstam
Special Ops
March 12th, 2009 @ 10:27AM
Registered:
2003-04-05
Location:
Posts: 1406
| It`s even worse when you get into statistics on gays. The Kinsey Institute (huge joke) will claim 10% of people are gay, while most other studies might say around 2% is more realistic.
Yes yes yes. So the world's getting worse because of some things on MTV plus a song which has lyrics as outrageous as 1994's Short Dick Man.
Perhaps I might offer an alternate to the "we need more religion or society's going to hell" theory.
American drug policy causes an insane amount of pain, especially considering it doesn't work for anyone but the drug kingpins, pharmaceutical companies, and prison system. Let's resolve that, and then rappers won't rap about selling drugs unless they want to sound like pharmacists.
American attitudes towards human sexual behaviour are ridiculous, but not in the way you think. You've already stated that there are lots of morons out there who don't know how to raise their kids and can't be counted on to educate them, so why haven't we as a society absolutely denounced abstinence sex-ed, thus risking leaving those kids with an information gap on such a pivotal issue? They'll naturally turn to learning about sex from MTV and song lyrics depicting cunnilingus and make you froth even more. It's a vicious cycle.
Oh, that's right, the reason these things are the way they are is because the mostly-Christer far right turn out and vote that way. Yes, I think not enough of them is exactly the problem we have. |
peekay
Peon
March 12th, 2009 @ 2:13PM
Registered:
2005-09-28
Location:
Germany
Posts: 359
| Count me among the heathens! |
