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Disastrous Fate
General
July 9th, 2012 @ 8:53PM
Registered:
2004-02-09
Location:
Posts: 1012
| Oh yes, a "study" from the DPMA.
What, you've never heard of the Doctor Patient Medical Association? Despite identifying itself as "nonpartisan," it is basically a political front to attack Obamacare. It's affiliated with the "National Tea Party Federation" (http://www.thenationalteapartyfederation.com/Membership_List.html), and its leading officials all have long histories of working for conservative policies.
In any case, what does "considered quitting" even mean? I'm sure everyone considers quitting their job over all kinds of stupid reasons. What are these doctors going to do instead? Work at Wal-Mart?
EDITED: 2012-07-09 21:01:06 |
passthesashimi
Peon
July 9th, 2012 @ 9:08PM
Registered:
2003-09-11
Location:
Sacramento
Posts: 19
| I`ve thought about quitting. But as he said, what are we going to do? The overwhelming majority of us have tons of student loans to pay off, so we`re stuck. The scariest part of obamacare is how many more entitled patients we`ll have to see. The ones that don`t take care of themselves and expect others to take care of them for free. |
passthesashimi
Peon
July 9th, 2012 @ 9:09PM
Registered:
2003-09-11
Location:
Sacramento
Posts: 19
| Oh and BTW. Pretty much everyone`s probably heard of the American Medical Association, yet they do not represent the majority of physicians` interests. |
Trickshot
Peon
July 9th, 2012 @ 9:32PM
Registered:
2006-10-22
Location:
Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 357
| My local doctor has been accused of murdering his wife and has hooked multiple people on oxycontin(heroin). Doctors are just like most people, they want money. |
Jubedgy
Marine
July 9th, 2012 @ 10:35PM
Registered:
2003-03-26
Location:
Groton, CT
Posts: 288
| That's a good point about "considered quitting" you make, though it does show a significant flaw in Obamacaretax. I have heard anecdotal evidence of older doctors retiring early or refusing to take medicare patients because of income considerations. Couple those cases with the higher education bubble (the cost of going to college is skyrocketing) and the reduced earnings potential for doctors (as cited by the anecdotal stories): what if we end up with a large reduction in the numbers of doctors? Sure Obamacaretax may give millions of people more insurance and/or guarantee care, but does that really mean anything if you have a six month waiting list for an appendectomy?
You can't force people to be doctors in our society, and if there's no financial incentive to go into that field, all you're left with is the people who do it for idealistic reasons. Do you really think there would be enough of those to meet demand?
I think this may be an unintended consequence that'll rear its ugly head in 10-20 years or so if Obamacaretax stands and the higher education bubble is not addressed. And tort reform does not occur. |
DarkShear
Marine
July 10th, 2012 @ 12:27AM
Registered:
2003-04-22
Location:
Seattle
Posts: 691
| Sometimes I read all the doom and gloom that will befall our country and I cannot help but remember the crisis that was December 31st 1999. The sky seems to be always falling whenever something changes. |
hjparcins
General
July 10th, 2012 @ 5:13AM
Registered:
2008-10-27
Location:
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Posts: 980
| I was accepted into an accelerated medical program directly out of high school.
I immediately went to college a week after graduating high school and I went to school non-stop for 2 years (i.e., through summers). Because I was accepted into the program I had a guaranteed medical seat as long as I kept a 3.2 GPA, which as everyone should know is super goddamn easy in college.
Nevertheless I decided to back out of the program a few months before I would have entered med school. I switched my major to English (hah!), finished "on time" in two years and went to law school.
I've never regretted my decision because medicine just wasn't for me. But man, that decision is even more justified now that ObamaCare has been passsed. I can't imagine having over $200,000 in debt only to be faced with the very real possibility of being forced into becoming a state employee one day.
Even if that doesn't technically happen, like passthesashimi said, I couldn't handle seeing so many scumbags. I'm already a pretty callous guy; being exposed to that many of society's dregs would really make me into a coldhearted dude.
Not only that, but while they remain private employees, I'm very frightened for the future of doctors and medical malpractice. With all these losers showing up all the time on the government dime, quality of care is inevitably going to drop. Mix a decreased quality of care with a bunch of entitled dickheads wanting to get rich quick and doctors are going to be fighting off med mal cases left and right. Their insurance will go up, but because of ObamaCare they won't be able to charge much more for medical services.
The result will likely be drastically reduced pay for doctors. Which is bullshit, because these guys worked their asses off to get where they are, have a high stress job, and again, most are in heinous student loan debt. Really, this issue is what I see as eventually being the driving factor for the government swooping in to completely socialize medicine. |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
July 10th, 2012 @ 6:22AM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2207
| Liberals always miss the forest for the trees.
Obama is no different than Hugo Chavez, only thinner and darker skinned. I can't even count the number of doctor friends and acquaintances I have (over a dozen) that have complained about what Obamacare is doing to their industry. The one professional I know that is in favor of it? A pharmaceutical salesman.
My wife graduated 2 years ago as a Nuclear Med Tech. 6 years of school and 100K in tuition and she has yet to find a job in the field despite a couple hundred applications all over the country. The few people in the industry willing to talk to her only talk about how they've had to let people go in her field because of Obamacare.
That's OK though. Let these liberal retards continue to tell us how good Obamacare is. Think of the poor it will help!(help keep poor while adding to their number) This law is a lodestone than we're going to use to drown them.
|
Smokin Joe
Marine
July 10th, 2012 @ 7:06AM
Registered:
2006-06-10
Location:
The Land of Chocolate
Posts: 2245
| It frightens me that so many people with access to so much information regularly refuse to use it while they scream that the sky is falling. |
forest_queen
Dame
July 10th, 2012 @ 7:43AM
Registered:
2003-03-26
Location:
WA
Posts: 1244
| My own doctor plans to retire when Obamacare goes into effect, that makes me sad. He's very good at what he does, I searched and went through many doctors to get to him.
I think that if doctors are forced to work for the state, then the state should comp their student loans. Who wants to pay more than $200K to go to school and put up with all of the crap? But wait.... that'd be spending more money that we don't have.
It makes me sad that the grandchildren that I don't even have yet will be responsible to pay off the debt that we continue to create today. |
Mantaur
Peon
July 10th, 2012 @ 8:28AM
Registered:
2011-12-16
Location:
Portland, OR
Posts: 17
| There are problems on both sides. First of all, med school is way too expensive. 500k or so is way to expensive and perhaps we need to look at that problem. I am sure it isn`t that much in other countries. Second, shouldn`t doctors put helping the sick before money?
I went to the doctor a couple months ago for allergy medicine. I knew exactly what I needed but the clinic insisted that I come in anyways. All I wanted was Flonase and Abuteral. Got the prescription written and a 200 dollar bill, AFTER insurance! Sorry but that is beyond ridiculous. Next winter I am going to BC and I will just buy my allergy medicine there. |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
July 10th, 2012 @ 8:41AM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2207
| Joe,
The Sky isn't falling but there is definitely no such thing as a "free" lunch. If you haven't learned yet socialist programs (like Obamacare) set the bar only as high as the weakest link in the chain. You can just state that employers, and doctors, and individuals HAVE to provide something for nothing in return and expect there not to be drastic far-reaching consequences.
Until we get rid of the class of people Obama and his ilk are expanding with ZERO skin in the game, this problem is only going to get worse. |
Disastrous Fate
General
July 10th, 2012 @ 9:00AM
Registered:
2004-02-09
Location:
Posts: 1012
| Obamacare isn't socialist, and it doesn't depend on a "something-for-nothing" logic at all.
If Romney won in 2008, he probably would've implemented something similar, and only RRP would be bitching. Since Obama did it, it's evil and Socialist and a government takeover and blah blah blah blah blah.
I mean, the second you call it socialist or you say something about doctors "forced to work for the state," you've demonstrated that you either don't know what you're talking about, or you don't care and just want to cause a stir. |
Trickshot
Peon
July 10th, 2012 @ 9:19AM
Registered:
2006-10-22
Location:
Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 357
| You people talk about liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans like they are different, when they are all the same thing. Corporate interest groups. |
justinr
Marine
July 10th, 2012 @ 9:37AM
Registered:
2003-04-13
Location:
Houston, TX
Posts: 119
| Government funded through taxation? Check.
Government dictating pricing / care by way of Medicare (meaning Medicare policies and standards are spilling over in to "private" insurance)? Check.
Government forcing medical providers to see patients? Check.
Sounds "Socialist"ish to me. Is it full blown? Maybe not. Is it super far from Capitalism? I'd say so. But apparently America became the most powerful country in the world by copying everyone else and running in a non-free market.
To claim that any form of "Socliaist"ish medicine implemented by a conservative would be warmly accepted is just silly. You need to read between the lines about some of these statements. Just because the state isn't signing your paychecks, doesn't mean they aren't controlling your every move, setting your pay schedules, and dictating who you will and will not see. The doctor / patient relationship has so many other hands in the cookie jar it is heading towards being non-confidential. Forced pay, regulation on everything you can do, etc.. They are "essentially" heading towards being state employees.
I have no alleigance to left or right. Both sides have their idiotic policies and screw up the country in different ways. All I can hope is that enough people attack individual BS that the different sides do when in power so as to not completely screw this country over. What I want is a return to "American values" - hard work, dedication, and integrity as a indicator of your rewards in life. Not entitlement and redistribution of wealth.
EDITED: 2012-07-10 09:39:02 |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
July 10th, 2012 @ 10:37AM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2207
| DF are you even aware of any of the dictates established by the Patient Protection and "Affordable" Care Act? (not counting the myriad number of dictates having nothing to do with Health Care at all bundled with the bill)
What can you call something that provides a good or service to someone at the involuntary expense of someone else if not socialist?
What about widespread price fixing? Capitalist right?
Your leaders may try to obfuscate the facts with a bunch of smoke screen and fog with statements like "Romney would've implemented something similar" etc. but Romney didn't and that playbook doesn't work on people who aren't mouth-breathing television addicts.
I'd gladly support a law that provides a SOLUTION to our health care troubles but not something the compounds our existing problems as this one has done.
EDITED: 2012-07-10 10:54:49 |
nate_orenstam
Special Ops
July 10th, 2012 @ 11:24AM
Registered:
2003-04-05
Location:
Posts: 1407
| Romney didn't
sure he did but he was governor, not president. |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
July 10th, 2012 @ 12:12PM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2207
| More garbage from the liberal playbook. I'm not going to get into the litany of differences between the two plans since that is exactly the plan of the playy. Obfuscate, misdirect, smoke screen and more bullshit.
Liberals can't fight Obamacare on the facts because they have no ground to stand on there, so like most of their arguments they just start regurgitating the same offal over and over. I'm surprised someone hasn't brought Bush into the discussion yet. It's only a matter of time.
|
Smokin Joe
Marine
July 10th, 2012 @ 12:12PM
Registered:
2006-06-10
Location:
The Land of Chocolate
Posts: 2245
| You guys are talking like socialist activity is morally wrong.
You also lack any sort of sourcing for such accusations, all I have to really say is "Occam's Razor" and really, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one:
It was shameful that a first world country had no National Healthcare coverage. Now we do. Everything else is just media sensationalism, obstructionism, fear mongering and finally whatever tiny percentage that is made up of actual people who want to work to perfect the Bill.
I'd gladly support a law that provides a SOLUTION to our health care troubles but not something the compounds our existing problems as this one has done.
You and your ilk had your chance, and instead of actually doing anything, you just complained and complained and complained (and probably berated libtards as per usual). Now that it is law you want to revert back to the Legislative process. Hindsight is 20/20. Next time take advantage of a situation at the proper time instead of making irrational demands after the fact.
EDITED: 2012-07-10 12:58:53 |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
July 10th, 2012 @ 2:40PM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2207
| Socialist activity IS morally wrong in my book. How else would you define rewarding failure and enslaving one group of people to another?
And what do you mean lack sourcing "accusations"? These aren't accusations, they are facts written in easily verifiable law. If you think you can find a simpler explanation for the reasoning behind Obamacare than this, let me know. It is nothing more than buying votes by taking from the few and giving to the many.
Only in a Liberal's twisted view of the world could taking money from one group of people and giving it to another group of people while lowering the overall quality and availability of
coverage for health care for EVERYONE be considered something to be proud of.
Seriously, I sometimes wonder if you people live on the same planet as I do.
|
justinr
Marine
July 10th, 2012 @ 3:12PM
Registered:
2003-04-13
Location:
Houston, TX
Posts: 119
| "It was shameful that a first world country had no National Healthcare coverage"
Shameful how? Socialism and communism are not what America was founded on. If I lived in a Socialist or Communist society I wouldn't be complaining. What I take trouble with is people shoving anti-Capitalist ideas down my throat and then accusing me of being "shameful" because I don't believe healthcare is a RIGHT.
You live in a country that was founded on Capitalism. Why does everyone seem to think it is so evil? I guess everyone thinks our country has been at the bottom of the pile and we should just copy Britain and Cananda. Obviously since Britain is crumbling under the weight of their financially bankrupt healthcare we should jump on their train to crazy town.
You can't save everyone. Things keep crumbling the further we get away from Capitalism. How can people not even be the slightest bit alarmed when highly educated, respected, and experienced DOCTORS are telling you this plan is impossible? Sure don't take something at face value but at least question it for one second.
Sure on paper it sounds wonderful that everyone is taken care of and everyone is equal - Communism and Socialism ALWAYS sound great on paper. There's never any losers! The fact of life is that there are ALWAYS winners and ALWAYS losers. No matter what the subject matter. Financially bankrupting healthcare providers and taking money away from successful people is anti-American. Giving free hand-outs is anti-American.
The two different sides disagree fundamentally and there will never be a conclusion that works for both sides. You're either on the side of Capitalism or you're on the side of "everyone else". You can't have Capitalism and Socialism and Communism and [insert here]ism.
EDITED: 2012-07-10 15:13:04
EDITED: 2012-07-10 15:14:39 |
nate_orenstam
Special Ops
July 10th, 2012 @ 3:16PM
Registered:
2003-04-05
Location:
Posts: 1407
| i like it when people say 'i'm not going into the facts' right before they say 'liberals can't fight with facts'. that right there is the hallmark of a professional argument winner. |
nate_orenstam
Special Ops
July 10th, 2012 @ 3:18PM
Registered:
2003-04-05
Location:
Posts: 1407
| "What I take trouble with is people shoving anti-Capitalist ideas down my throat and then accusing me of being "shameful" because I don't believe healthcare is a RIGHT."
sorry, you already don't live in a capitalist society where healthcare is concerned. if sick people showing up at the er were turned away to die in the streets if they couldn't pay, *that* would be a capitalist healthcare system. that's not the way it works. |
justinr
Marine
July 10th, 2012 @ 3:24PM
Registered:
2003-04-13
Location:
Houston, TX
Posts: 119
| if sick people showing up at the er were turned away to die in the streets if they couldn't pay, *that* would be a capitalist healthcare system. that's not the way it works.
It should be up to the hospitals. You're assuming I agree with the law that no one is allowed to be turned away from the ER.
EDITED: 2012-07-10 15:24:51 |
nate_orenstam
Special Ops
July 10th, 2012 @ 4:08PM
Registered:
2003-04-05
Location:
Posts: 1407
| It should be up to the hospitals. You're assuming I agree with the law that no one is allowed to be turned away from the ER.
yes, i am assuming that, because you're complaining about obamacare, not the status quo, when neither appear to satisfy your desire for indigents being denied medical care. |
BiVRiP
General
July 10th, 2012 @ 4:19PM
Registered:
2003-05-11
Location:
Canada
Posts: 1882
| justinr brings up a very interesting point. Is healthcare a right or a privilege?
If it is a privilege and this viewpoint is affirmed by a majority conservatives, then it raises an interesting question. Why are there no conservatives running with the following mandate:
* Politicians have to pay for their own health coverage.
* Medicare/medicaid should be abolished
* Healthcare providers should have the legal right to turn away patients who cannot pay.
However if healthcare is a right, what then is the alternative in a country where a significant portion of the population shuns universal care or even a public option, yet has a legal obligation to treat any person who shows up at the ER? If the cost has to be paid one way or the other, why not force each citizen to purchase their own coverage so that at least they are paying something into the system to offset the cost for everyone else that has already paid?
Not to sound glib, but I find it sadly amusing when I see conservative pundits championing the case for the little guy who can't afford health coverage yet in the same breath will denounce them for not paying their fair share in taxes. After all they should be paying something no matter how poor they are in order to offset the burden from everyone that is already paying. Right? |
Smokin Joe
Marine
July 10th, 2012 @ 5:39PM
Registered:
2006-06-10
Location:
The Land of Chocolate
Posts: 2245
| Only in a Liberal's twisted view of the world could taking money from one group of people and giving it to another group of people while lowering the overall quality and availability of
coverage for health care for EVERYONE be considered something to be proud of.
Oh stop with your tired act of belligerence in place of an actual argument. You don't present anything except insults at those different than you.
Shameful how? Socialism and communism are not what America was founded on. If I lived in a Socialist or Communist society I wouldn't be complaining. What I take trouble with is people shoving anti-Capitalist ideas down my throat and then accusing me of being "shameful" because I don't believe healthcare is a RIGHT.
You live in a country that was founded on Capitalism. Why does everyone seem to think it is so evil? I guess everyone thinks our country has been at the bottom of the pile and we should just copy Britain and Cananda. Obviously since Britain is crumbling under the weight of their financially bankrupt healthcare we should jump on their train to crazy town.
America was founded on a lot of things that don't exist right now. Would you like to revert to the Articles of Confederation? Or that only white property owners can vote? Hey, how about ridding this country of Women's Suffrage (THE SUFFRAGE MUST END).
Don't be so goddamn rigid when it comes to things you may object to because one of the largest things this country was founded on was the right to hold differing opinions, that progress can be achieved through compromise and understanding.
Do the socialist operations of the Police and Fire Department scare you as well? We have Public Schools flush with cash and Public Schools struggling to fund after-school programs. How about the FDA, FCC, FTC, OSHA, et al? We also are not a complete 100% Free Market Capitalist society either - we have laws that prevent cigarettes, porn and alcohol being sold to minors (the nerve of government control!), we have regulations that I think help us out greatly.
The country was founded with checks and balances in place to ensure that the Constitution remains a living document, able to be modified as the times change and society progresses, not to remain stagnant and abused.
Are there problems with Obamacare? I'm sure, no Republicans put in any input whatsoever, so there are some lacking points - but it isn't set in stone, we live in a fairly progressive society that is able to make changes rather quickly.
I'm a goddamn American, I want and deserve all the perks that other citizens of the World get - I don't give a shit what economic/political system you have, if it helps with your quality of life, I want it too. |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
July 10th, 2012 @ 6:47PM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2207
| i like it when people say 'i'm not going into the facts' right before they say 'liberals can't fight with facts'. that right there is the hallmark of a professional argument winner.
You have to love when people misquote what someone else says in order to argue with it because the person is right, all while avoiding the original subject. It's called misdirection. I'm not getting into the whole "Romney would have done the same as Obama" debate because that is hypothetical and not what the discussion is about even if I could prove to all reasonable persons otherwise.
The only "fact" I'm espousing is that Obamacare is a socialist program and you liberals can argue until you're blue in the face that it isn't but that doesn't change the facts.
The reason I don't bother with rational discussions with you people is because you're incapable of it with your distorted perception of reality. You're reasoning facilities are just corrupt.
You seem to think Conservatives want people to die on the street corners while the wealthy sit around and eat cake and drink champagne. The reality is we recognize that our success is far more often the result of hard labor, and a passion to constantly improve ourselves than anything else and that rewarding those qualities is the best way to ensure that THE MOST people are successful as is possible. We also understand that rewarding failure, dishonesty, and laziness in a naive effort to protect everyone who suffers misfortune is the best way encourage THOSE qualities.
Conservatives don't believe the Constitution is some kind of living document that changes on the whims of the masses. We believe the Constitution was made extremely difficult to amend to protect exactly against that. Activist judges have found a way around that protection by legislating from the bench through a corrupt interpretation of the law.
Do you people honestly think that laws can be written to address every scenario without creating more problems than they solve through the abuse of that law?
It is the honest individual that is best suited to help those who are truly in need. The more you take from those who have and the more laws you write that encourage corruption, the less people will be willing and capable to help those in need who deserve their help.
And good God Joe, please stop referring to the Police and Fire Department as "Socialist", it makes you sound like an idiot. Anyone who has ever owned property has asked themselves what level of
protection and local schooling they are comfortable with and how much they are willing to pay for those services. If you think the taxation in an area is too high then you are always free to move somewhere else (or stay out of those areas in the first place). I live in an area with a crappy school system, no police department outside of the sheriff's department, and about as far as you get from a fire department and I pay very low property taxes because that is more important to me than those services. That is capitalist, no socialist since I have a choice in the decision of where I live and as a LOCAL voter in a relatively small block of people I have a strong say in the election of those people who decide those taxes and services.
|
nate_orenstam
Special Ops
July 10th, 2012 @ 9:21PM
Registered:
2003-04-05
Location:
Posts: 1407
| You have to love when people misquote what someone else says in order to argue with it because the person is right, all while avoiding the original subject.
i think its germane that mitt romney "socialized" healthcare in mass while he was governor, because his current stance on the concept is as big a flip-flop as anything i heard from john kerry (for example). its certainly your prerogative to disagree.
You seem to think Conservatives want people to die on the street corners while the wealthy sit around and eat cake and drink champagne.
let me put it this way: the justinr "if you can't pay for healthcare, die" libertarians are a lot more compelling in my opinion than the people that think that under obamacare a wave of poor people are going to come out of the woodwork and consume a bunch of health care that they can't pay for. poor people do that right now, and as a society we've already decided that's a cost we'll shoulder. pinning that on obamacare is disingenuous and uninformed.
|
hjparcins
General
July 11th, 2012 @ 5:03AM
Registered:
2008-10-27
Location:
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Posts: 980
| i think its germane that mitt romney "socialized" healthcare in mass while he was governor, because his current stance on the concept is as big a flip-flop as anything i heard from john kerry (for example)
Keep in mind he did this at the state level. A lot of conservatives are OK with state-by-state legislation on some of these issues (after all, you can choose which state to live in), but when the feds get involved they are sure to screw it up. You can trust a smaller state government to pull something off a LOT better than the bloated and corrupt federal government.
I'm not personally a fan of a lot of Massachusetts law, but that's just one reason I live in Florida. |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
July 11th, 2012 @ 6:31AM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2207
| Hj,
Turning the argument to why Romneycare is different is their strategy. I reject both and can support Romney. Just because you support someone doesn't mean that you can't disagree with their position on things. Since Romney has vowed to appeal Obamacare I accept that. I'll let others discuss whether or not he is a flip-flopper etc because that is immaterial to the discussion that Obamacare is destroying our health care system and it isn't even fully implemented yet!
Nate, our concern isn't that the poor are going to come out of the woodwork and consume a bunch of health care, it is the health care they currently receive will become more expensive and the rest of us who provide our own health care will have less access to it and receive lower quality care at a higher cost: those are the proven results of socialized programs and government mandated price-fixing.
EDITED: 2012-07-11 08:06:42 |
nate_orenstam
Special Ops
July 11th, 2012 @ 9:56AM
Registered:
2003-04-05
Location:
Posts: 1407
| Keep in mind he did this at the state level. A lot of conservatives are OK with state-by-state legislation on some of these issues (after all, you can choose which state to live in), but when the feds get involved they are sure to screw it up.
How do you feel about medicare and medicaid? Lets dispense with the "oh its a tax" vs "oh its a penalty" handwaving--I don't understand why medicare is an integral part of american healthcare that nobody seriously considers cutting, and obamacare is the original sin.
Nate, our concern isn't that the poor are going to come out of the woodwork and consume a bunch of health care, it is the health care they currently receive will become more expensive
why would that necessarily be the case? medical professionals love to talk about preventative care, vs walking into the er when you're really sick.
please understand the issue here. you're living in the greatest country the world has ever known, and if you don't have group health coverage and do havea preexisting condition you are fucked sideways. you cannot get coverage at any reasonable price, you cannot pay for your medical care, so you... what?
meanwhile, eight thousand different insurance companies have different codes, policies, pricing structures, and the overhead of running a billing department for a medical operation that will bill insurance is ridiculous. "medical coder" is actually an area of study at finer jucos nationwide, when all of these people should be driven out of their profession as surely as telemarketers were.
i get that you're a principled figure from a rand novel who will never visit a doctor or hospital, but most people aren't that way. they'll skate on insurance and coverage until they actually need it, and then--again because america isn't willing to have her citizens expire in the gutter for want of a round of antibiotics--they'll get their treatment anyway, and contribute as little as possible. |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
July 11th, 2012 @ 12:55PM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2207
| "I don't understand why medicare is an integral part of American healthcare that nobody seriously considers cutting, and obamacare is the original sin."
Because you don't understand either law, period. Medicare isn't a progressive tax. Obamacare is.
The reason Republicans aren't calling for a repeal of Medicaid is because you peel an onion from the outside first, not from the inside. Liberals keep piling on layer after layer of bad laws and the whole country is starting to stink.
|
Smokin Joe
Marine
July 11th, 2012 @ 1:44PM
Registered:
2006-06-10
Location:
The Land of Chocolate
Posts: 2245
| The only "fact" I'm espousing is that Obamacare is a socialist program and you liberals can argue until you're blue in the face that it isn't but that doesn't change the facts.
And to simpletons, Socialist === bad!
And good God Joe, please stop referring to the Police and Fire Department as "Socialist", it makes you sound like an idiot.
I wasn't talking to you. Frankly, I don't really give a crap what your opinion is of my intelligence because unless I follow you blindly, you'll think I'm wrong anyway.
The reality is we recognize that our success is far more often the result of hard labor, and a passion to constantly improve ourselves than anything else and that rewarding those qualities is the best way to ensure that THE MOST people are successful as is possible. We also understand that rewarding failure, dishonesty, and laziness in a naive effort to protect everyone who suffers misfortune is the best way encourage THOSE qualities.
Hahahhaha, oooooh man, now that is comical. Speak for yourself, not generalities.
And if you want to speak in generalities, provide something more than just your own personal experiences (or of your 'friends'). You make huge accusations that mean nothing without some substance. |
nate_orenstam
Special Ops
July 11th, 2012 @ 4:15PM
Registered:
2003-04-05
Location:
Posts: 1407
| Because you don't understand either law, period. Medicare isn't a progressive tax. Obamacare is.
.9% over 200k. the progressiveness will surely send all the job creators from the usa to the wonderful freedom of Uzbekistan where they can cavort with 83% of american doctors. |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
July 11th, 2012 @ 6:04PM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2207
| Actually I like and appreciate Socialism as much as I do any well intentioned Idea. It is only when people try to implement it that it is "bad"....because socialism only works on paper.
And Joe I was speaking for Conservatives not liberals, the vast majority of which agree with what I said. It isn't a generalization when it is a widely held view. Granted you cut the part where I was speaking of conservatives in order to set up your straw man, but that is what Liberals do in order to debate.
Nate, keep trying man. You're either ignorant or you know damn well and are choosing to leave out the fact there are far more "progressive" penalties aimed at the wealthy in that bill that are nothing like Medicare.
Even so the progressive taxes are only part of the reason it is an absurd bill that is bad for everyone except the people on the public dole.
EDITED: 2012-07-11 18:48:15 |
dmikon
Peon
July 11th, 2012 @ 7:12PM
Registered:
2004-11-05
Location:
USA
Posts: 398
| Charkoth: How exactly will Obamacare destroy our health care system? Don`t give me Fox News tlking points, can you explain it to me with actual logical arguments without using words like "liberal retards" and "socialism"?
I would also like to know what your vision of health care is. |
killer6600
Marine
July 11th, 2012 @ 9:01PM
Registered:
2007-06-16
Location:
canada
Posts: 1160
| charkoths view of healthcare is this
doctors set prices as they see fit for whatever person A needs.
person A has 2 choices, either have health insurance before needing health care or pay the doctor out of pocket.
what he doesn't want is people telling doctors what to charge (insurance companies already do this) and he doesn't want to have to pay extra himself for poor people (read dumb because everyone in america can be a billionaire if they just try) but he already does that because insurance companies aren't stupid and they don't just say ho hum when someone doesn't pay a bill, that gets passed onto him already. |
Smokin Joe
Marine
July 12th, 2012 @ 8:23AM
Registered:
2006-06-10
Location:
The Land of Chocolate
Posts: 2245
| Nate, keep trying man. You're either ignorant or you know damn well and are choosing to leave out the fact there are far more "progressive" penalties aimed at the wealthy in that bill that are nothing like Medicare.
You're right, it is so hard to be wealthy in this country nowadays. So few ways to spend your money and even fewer ways to invest and remain wealthy.
Must be tough. |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
July 12th, 2012 @ 2:58PM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2207
| You mean how IS it destroying our health care system (and more importantly our economy)? You've watched Fox News more than I have I assure you, I don't even watch television and if I did it sure as hell wouldn't be to listen to political pundits on any side of the aisle.
My thoughts on the Health Care law come from me and my understanding of business, human behavior patterns, and economics, not anyone else (although I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks these same thoughts).
Now I'm not going to write down every explanation in detail because that would require far more pages than the Supreme Court decision to uphold the law did. I'll summarize a few though.
Taxes:
FSA Limits have been cut to $2500/year which was one of the ways WORKING people with health problems were able to pay for their care on a pretax basis. Result is the cost of their care will increase (remember people using FSAs are people who KNOW they are going to spend the money on care every year so they have prexisting conditions).
Itemized Medical Expense deduction threshhold from 7.5% to 10%. Same scenario. Raises taxes on extremely sick people. My best friend who is 35 and had kidney failure at 28 is one of these people and he is on disability as it is (through the University he worked for, not SS).
2.3% GROSS Tax on Medical devices
Not only will this increase the cost of these devices needed by (sick) people, but it will make future development of new devices much less likely since it is a gross tax and not a revenue tax.
Payroll tax increase by .9%, Capital Gains tax increase of 3.8% for the wealthy (There is a reason a cashed out my entire 401K after the supreme court decision, people who are in the long haul on for their long term retirement are going to pay the price when the wealthy investors cash out this year to avoid the capital gains increase).
No Pre-Existing conditions clause - Insurance companies must now raise the rates on every to cover the added expense of covering a few with pre-existing conditions, regardless of the reason for those conditions
Forcing coverage of dependents until 26 - once again increases the cost of coverage for everyone to offset the cost of this
Do I need to really explain the economics behind how price fixing anything is bad? Is that a Fox News talking point?
If you want to fix our health care problem you address the problem (the cost) not the flipping symptom (the uninsured).
Why is health care expensive and what would I do to fix it? Several things actually.
Obesity. Obese people cost 25% more than healthy weighted people with respect to health care. I think our insurance mandate tax should be changed into a fat tax instead. There should be a exponential penalty tax based on your body fat percentage over the healthy limit for your sex.
Malpractice Lawsuits twofold really
1) the passed on cost of insurance to protect the doctor from lawsuits
2) more importantly, the cost to the system of doctors who over-prescribe medicine, treatments, and surgeries in order to protect themselves from malpractice suits. Every person I know in the health care industry has complained of the necessity of this practice
People living longer with more ailments. Fact is we're keeping a lot of people alive longer, and in hospitals. That has a cost to society that needs to be controlled (which is a debate in itself)
Poor competition in insurance due to government subsidies. Right now as healthy individual who works out every day, doesn't smoke, and rarely eats fast food I would pay far more for health insurance shopping individually than I do in my company group plan. Why is this? Because the government subsidizes companies to provide a group plan, but not the individual. My payments to my company for health care are even pre-tax via section 125 cafeteria plans which isn't the case if I go solo. This encourages little to no competition among insurance companies and more importantly provides NO motivation for the individual to lead a healthy lifestyle in order to pay reduced rates much like you are careful with your driving record in order to keep your rates down.
I could list another half dozen or so major issues with our health care and how to fix them but the point is, we're not addressing the problem, we're addressing the symptom (and a host of other things that have nothing to do with health care) with this absurd law. But hey, let's just keep tugging heart-strings as we push our country off a cliff and screw everyone for the sake of a few.
Did I mention the cost of this law and the issues I outlined above are going to bankrupt this country? Did you know medicare/medicaid is now the single largest expense in this country? More than wars/defense spending and more than social security. Lets just keep expanding it! We can always get more from the Rich right?
EDITED: 2012-07-12 15:05:46 |
killer6600
Marine
July 12th, 2012 @ 3:14PM
Registered:
2007-06-16
Location:
canada
Posts: 1160
| you put in all the increases that the insurance companies will have to pay out, but you leave out the 40 million new customers they will be receiving.
also lol at fat tax, michelle obama says people should eat more fruits and veggies and sarah palin shows up at schools with sugar cookies shitting bricks about the freedom to be fat, could you imagine the explosion of hate from hank williams jr if the taxed people for being fat?
you'd force people to go to the government and what? take a body fat measurement? or do we just get rid of the fat people all together? even if they pay out of pocket for their insurance your insurance is higher because of them even if the government isn't involved |
justinr
Marine
July 12th, 2012 @ 5:19PM
Registered:
2003-04-13
Location:
Houston, TX
Posts: 119
| Charkoth put it pretty well - address the problem and not the symptom. |
Charkoth
Right Wing Extremist
July 12th, 2012 @ 8:26PM
Registered:
2003-05-08
Location:
OHIO
Posts: 2207
| So killer, you're saying you're perfectly fine with the government requiring proof of health insurance, but you draw the line at them requiring you provide a body fat measurement? Isn't Obama already doing something similar with smoking? (the single thing I can think of that Obama has done that I agree with wholeheartedly).
I would much rather charge the people who are costing ALL of us more than a group of people who are all ready carrying their own weight(pun intended) and more.
That's just the tip of the iceberg, not the entire plan.
Individual responsibility is a cornerstone to any truly conservative idea. Group responsibility is often the foundation of liberal ideas. It is much simpler to correct an efficiency problem from the bottom up approach instead of the top down. This is why I have yet to see a government run program come in at or even under original projected cost instead of often 2-3 times (And usually far more) the original cost.
What was Obamacare supposed to cost us over 10 years? 900 billion? What is that estimate 2 years in? 2.7 trillion or something? The worst part is the democrats designed the law so the worst happens AFTER the 2012 elections. I wonder why that is?
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